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 Idea Fixing Wyches

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Fri Jan 01 2016, 21:32

Yep, they consolidated the options pretty hard after that, and we got shafted. Thanks Mycetic Spore!

Thanks stilgat27 - if they have moved away from the strict conformation to kit then that gives me some hope our next book will be better!

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Fri Jan 01 2016, 21:37

Chapter House got sued because they created miniatures and named them like games Workshop did when they should've named them with synonyms to be fine...

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Fri Jan 01 2016, 21:44

@CptMetal wrote:
Chapter House got sued because they created miniatures and named them like games Workshop did when they should've named them with synonyms to be fine...

And GW lost many of the claims they made for such things as they were trying to claim copyright that they didn't own and in many cases couldn't own.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Fri Jan 01 2016, 22:25

But they won against chapter House studios

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Fri Jan 01 2016, 22:33

@Count Adhemar wrote:

And GW lost many of the claims they made for such things as they were trying to claim copyright that they didn't own and in many cases couldn't own.

Like space marine. They CAN'T own that term, as it was in pop culture use since like the 60's-70's, far before GW was even around. They do this with all sorts of things that they didn't originally come up with. And they send out cease and desist letters that work for them 90% of the time. The other 10%, they lose in court.

It's all mostly fear tactics.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Fri Jan 01 2016, 22:45

@CptMetal wrote:
But they won against chapter House studios

They won some of the claims they made against Chapter House. Chapter House won far more of them.

Quote :
The jury deliberated for more than two days and found that Chapterhouse could continue to make and sell over a hundred products without fear of copyright infringement. The jury also confirmed that Chapterhouse could continue to use most of Games Workshop’s asserted trademarks when selling compatible parts, including all nine of Games Workshop’s registered trademarks. Together with the summary judgment wins, the jury’s verdict confirmed Chapterhouse can continue to make and sell 111 products that Games Workshop hoped to block using copyright laws, and can continue to use 104 words and phrases that Games Workshop said were trademarked.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Fri Jan 01 2016, 22:48

@CptMetal wrote:
But they won against chapter House studios

Not really, no.

The case against them comprised about a hundred different claims, of which CHS won more than they lost. IIRC this included the use of the tyranid drop pod.

If you're interested, this is a more detailed summary of the lawsuit from the BoLS forum:

Spoiler:
 
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Fri Jan 01 2016, 23:57

The space marine thing was literally insane.  The "space marine" concept is probably a few minutes younger than the idea of sending ships into space, and the term was already in use in science fiction in the 1930s (Captain Brink of the Space Marines - Published 1932).

Not that the people at geedubs know this of course, they most likely lifted the name, along with a serious chunk of "their" intellectual property from the alien franchise in the 1980s.  30 years later they sue other people out of existence for trying to "steal" what they've clearly already stolen.

Seriously GW, Sometimes I wish you had a face, so I could smack it. Mad
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Fri Jan 01 2016, 23:59

GW parted company with the head of their legal dept shortly after this verdict.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sat Jan 02 2016, 01:07

@Count Adhemar wrote:
GW parted company with the head of their legal dept shortly after this verdict.

Probably because he cost them millions in legal fees and attourney costs while ultimately losing their trademark fight on 2/3's of the issues, and only recouping $25,000.

-2,000,000
  +25,000
= -1,975,000

If there's one thing GW is good at, it's looking at the bottom line.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sat Jan 02 2016, 02:34

That's the problem with trying to claim things that aren't yours to begin with, and picking a fight that is unwinnable. I don't think it would have mattered who it was in charge, there was no victory in most of the stuff in their lawsuit.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sat Jan 02 2016, 02:54

But it doesn't keep GW from doing it. They still use C&D letters to scare small businesses into complying with their wishes, even when those wishes have been shown in court to be unenforceable.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sat Jan 02 2016, 08:05

Thanks for clearing that up for me
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sat Jan 02 2016, 09:53

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
GW parted company with the head of their legal dept shortly after this verdict.

Probably because he cost them millions in legal fees and attourney costs while ultimately losing their trademark fight on 2/3's of the issues, and only recouping $25,000.

-2,000,000
  +25,000
= -1,975,000

If there's one thing GW is good at, it's looking at the bottom line.

It's even worse than that though - because their lawsuit also established several legal precedents against themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sat Jan 02 2016, 10:51

Against themselves? What do you mean?

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sat Jan 02 2016, 11:12

@CptMetal wrote:
Against themselves? What do you mean?

I mean the stuff like the no-infringement ruling on size and shape of SM shoulder pads (and whatever else was in the 2/3 of similar claims that CHS won).

Before, if a company - especially a smaller one - was making shoulder pads or such, GW could threaten legal action and the threat alone would probably be enough. However, because they went through with this lawsuit and lost, there's now a legal precedent against GW.

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well, but before there was a lot more legal grey area, which GW could exploit to effectively bully small companies. Since GW are one of the largest miniature companies, most small ones wouldn't want to risk going against them in court. However, this case basically removed all that grey area by establishing very clear ideas of what GW can and can't claim copyright/patent on. Moreover, it turns out that they can't copyright/trademark nearly a much as they thought they could.

Basically, it's given other companies a much better idea of what they can get away with in terms of making GW parts and such.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sat Jan 02 2016, 12:39

Ah okay. I wasn't sure if you were referring to some obscure layman court decision of the United states.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sat Jan 02 2016, 18:04

@CptMetal wrote:
Ah okay. I wasn't sure if you were referring to some obscure layman court decision of the United states.

What exactly is an "obscure layman court decision" of the united states?

You DO realise that since the US represents 33%-50% of GW's sales worldwide, any court decision here regarding copyright/trademark policy would be far from obscure, and more likely a landmark decision, almost certainly directing future GW global policy, right?

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sat Jan 02 2016, 20:53

Well, I was just referring to the fact that the courts of the United States work with laymen what can lead to "interesting" compensations being demanded. But that's another story.

Of course the decision of the court is important but it's just binding for the United states. The rest of the world isn't bound to united States court decisions. But most definitely it will influence future games workshop policies, I never doubted that part.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Jan 03 2016, 08:23

The external revenue of games workshop is smaller then continental Europe's by the way and only a tad bigger than the United Kingdom. So it's more in the 20-30% area

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Jan 03 2016, 14:09

I really don't see the value in discussing with CptMetal. The guy read a DE book and probably saw "Law&Order" once, so he is an expert in everything.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Jan 03 2016, 14:21

I said nothing wrong. United States courts use laymen. I said nothing about it being bad. In fact, regarding decisions against big companies, this system is better then our German one.

Sorry if I somehow offended you, maybe I found the wrong numbers please get the right ones.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Jan 03 2016, 16:49

US courts don't use laymen. Judges are elected officials who almost universally are licensed attourneys at law who spent 8 years in specialised schooling and 10+ years practicing law. Attourneys require 8+ years of special schooling(for which you must first qualify) and must pass a bar exam before they're permitted to practice.

As for US percentage of GW revenue, for 2014 and 2015, it made up ~23% of their own retail sales, and ~40% of their trade store sales. These numbers aren't counting online orders shipped to the US, since GW doesn't publish those numbers. But the exact numbers aren't really relevent, since it's clear that GW wouldn't abandon their US operations due to US court decisions that weren't favorable. It wouldn't be profitable. So they'd have to follow the US court decisions.

And you say US court decisions aren't applicable worldwide, and that is technically true, while a bit short-sighted. Sure, your country need not follow our trademark and copyright laws, but we're a pretty serious player in the global marketplace. No other country has to follow the UK's copyright/trademark law either, so technically if it were legal in the US, someone here could make a copycat of GW's entire company and start competing with them globally(other than UK) at half the prices GW charges. It's NOT legal, but could and absolutely WOULD happen if it were, so legal decisions here are far-reaching worldwide.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Jan 03 2016, 18:54

I was referring to the judges (jury?) that are elected citizens as far as I know. Isn't that used anymore? I'm sorry if I got that wrong.

The external revenue 2014 in million for
UK 28
Continental Europe 35
North Amerika (not only US) 32

Those are the numbers I found.

And don't get me wrong, I'm glad that games workshop didn't win against chapter House, even if it lead to the death of many Charakters in the dark Eldar codex.


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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Jan 03 2016, 21:01

@CptMetal wrote:
I was referring to the judges (jury?) that are elected citizens as far as I know. Isn't that used anymore? I'm sorry if I got that wrong.

The jury trial is only used in specific types of cases, and when it's used, all the jury decides is who is right, the plaintiff or the defendant.

The judge determines the actual ruling of the case based on who the jury decides is correct. So any "interesting" compensations or w/e that occur are typically the decision of a professional legal person as opposed to a layman.

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