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 Idea Fixing Wyches

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 01:14

Just thinking about a cheapish troop choice for wyches that works well. Somewhere from 9-12pts to make them work.  

Some sort of overwatch protection and a more combat pumch would be nice. Like ap2 on 6s to wound, preferred enemy because they fight everything in the arena and/old Wych weapons that halved weapons skill and removed the double armed bonus.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 01:29

@colinsherlow wrote:
Just thinking about a cheapish troop choice for wyches that works well. Somewhere from 9-12pts to make them work.  

Some sort of overwatch protection and a more combat pumch would be nice. Like ap2 on 6s to wound.

Yeah, pseudo-rending and dodge that worked against overwatch would work, but it's sort of dull. I think it'd be much cooler and more interesting if they spiced them up to be more like the fluff, going more in line with Count Adhemar's, Erubus', or my ideas and just adjusting prices accordingly.

13 points/model isn't expensive at all, and is in line with costs for space marines. It also gives us a similar dynamic as space marines, having wyches be our higher cost troops(like marines), while warriors are our budget option that's generally better at range(like scouts).

ALSO, I think they should be able to use haywire grenades. It's a technology that's available to the dark eldar, and the fluff says that wych cults generally have access to the finest in weapons tech because they earn a lot through their performances. There is no reason a wych wouldn't take a haywire grenade along when they were going to a battle where they knew vehicles would be utilized, or even if they weren't entirely sure. Grenades definitely aren't "against their fighting style". They're arena fighters, sure. But that doesn't make them morons. They're going to bring the tools for the job at hand, and if that job is fighting an ACTUAL battle instead of an arena battle, they're going to bring ACTUAL battle gear.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 01:36

Good call. And I tend to agree with the Count. Including his ideas for wyches.

I would like to see some unique rule that really makes thevwychws feel like wyches. I guess combat drugs a dodge does that, but something new and different would be welcome

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 02:02

@colinsherlow wrote:
Good call. And I tend to agree with the Count.  Including his ideas for wyches.

I would like to see some unique rule that really makes thevwychws feel like wyches.  I guess combat drugs a dodge does that, but something new and different would be welcome

I liked the count's idea for initiative over opponents = extra attacks. Paired with rending and dodge save while charging, it truly makes wyches something to be feared in melee, while maintaining their inherent weakness vs. basic ranged attacks.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 02:12

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

This list would crush just about anything I could imagine that doesn't utterly destroy them all before round 2. Flat out everything round 1 into the enemy's face. Jink against anything shooting at you. Rending on the wyches he described would chew vehicles up like no other. It would give the potential on every attack to damage up to AV12, and wyches would have something like 8 attacks per model against vehicles, since vehicles are considered initiative 1 in CC if I recall correctly. And I'd never purchase special weapons because buying another wych/bride is simply a more efficient use of points. Furthermore, the basic wych model has the potential to kill ANYTHING else in the game in CC. They can't hurt air, of course, which is where the jetfighters come in. They're armed with dark lances in case your opponent has planes, and if not, they drop 4 missiles on troops/vehicles.

I'd like a version similar to the Count's idea, where they get a single extra attack if they have higher weapon skill OR higher initiative, and two extra attacks if they have both. That way they'd still get nice bonuses against most normal enemies - still 2 bonus attacks versus MEQ, but not obscene against some enemies like Tau - do we really need 4 potential bonus attacks on a 10 point model with rending?

This rule would not apply in combat with tanks; in that case, as you say, bring back haywire grenades for the whole squad.

This would balance it a bit more, and make the list you describe strong, but not completely dominant for our choices.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 05:27

Yeah, something like that could work. Would still likely be worth a mild points increase. But they wouldn't get 2 bonus attacks vs MEQ would they? Wouldn't they both be WS4?

The count didn't suggest a change to WS that I can see.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 10:34

No, I'm reasonably happy with the statline of Wyches and with the changes I proposed I think they would become a true glass cannon, as opposed to their current glass peashooter. Only change I might think about would be to swap Rending for a melee version of the Eldar Bladestorm as I really don't see them as being effective against vehicles.

On the other hand, they would be utterly boned against Walkers so maybe I'd keep it...

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 11:01

@Count Adhemar wrote:
No, I'm reasonably happy with the statline of Wyches and with the changes I proposed I think they would become a true glass cannon, as opposed to their current glass peashooter. Only change I might think about would be to swap Rending for a melee version of the Eldar Bladestorm as I really don't see them as being effective against vehicles.

On the other hand, they would be utterly boned against Walkers so maybe I'd keep it...

Do you think they'd need a cost increase to justify your changes, Count?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 11:11

@The Shredder wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
No, I'm reasonably happy with the statline of Wyches and with the changes I proposed I think they would become a true glass cannon, as opposed to their current glass peashooter. Only change I might think about would be to swap Rending for a melee version of the Eldar Bladestorm as I really don't see them as being effective against vehicles.

On the other hand, they would be utterly boned against Walkers so maybe I'd keep it...

Do you think they'd need a cost increase to justify your changes, Count?

Well, looking at Harlequins, they're 15ppm but have +1 WS, A and Ld, permanent 5++, Fear, Furious Charge and movement abilities. I'd put my new Wyches at less than that.

Howling Banshees are 13ppm and have -1I, +1Ld, permanent 4+ armour, extra movement, overwatch immunity, AP3 and Battle Focus. Are new Wyches as good as that? Probably not but they're not far off.

Maybe put them up to 12 points?

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 18:17

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Howling Banshees are 13ppm and have -1I, +1Ld, permanent 4+ armour, extra movement, overwatch immunity, AP3 and Battle Focus. Are new Wyches as good as that? Probably not but they're not far off.

Maybe put them up to 12 points?

I think wyches with your suggested changes and full rending would be better than the banshees and worth every bit of the 13 points. I would support this version of wyches. Though, with the toned down pseudo-rending version I would agree at 11-12 points/model with an optional 2ppm upgrade for haywire grenades, for the reasons I previously described.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 22:30

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Yeah, something like that could work. Would still likely be worth a mild points increase. But they wouldn't get 2 bonus attacks vs MEQ would they? Wouldn't they both be WS4?

The count didn't suggest a change to WS that I can see.

You know, I have no idea how I missed that. The most defining feature of MEQ are those four 4's as their values for WS/BS/S/T. Of course we'd only get one bonus. Mind you, it would give some actual value in getting the +1 WS drug, but still. Don't know how I didn't think that through lol.

I think I like the Count's idea a bit more as a result. But it still seems really over the top against low initiative enemies. Suddenly, a carnifex/riptide/any tau, ork or necron eats like 7 attacks per wych, all with rending.

Perhaps a cap on the bonus attacks rule mentioned is in order ie 3 extra attacks per model max.

It would be reasonable for the described Wych to be 12 ppm, if they had access to nades, the melee bladestorm that is described earlier and these bonus attacks.

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Korazell
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Apr 03 2016, 16:39

I think that a large part of why wyches seem so terrible is that the "Elite" version of them is utter garbage.

Wych weapons do nothing worth their points right now, and, they don't become more killy, they just become a point sink. Compared to Banshees or striking Scorps we're getting completely robbed.

Sure, we get Incubi, but, with the changes in 7th I'm not even sure if they are as great as they were in 6th...I liked their powers.

I think that with the purposed changes, and access to haywire, they could be what the fluff has always wanted them to be. I also think that the special weapons need to be just that, special, and not be these watered down wastes.

I also think we need BETTER options for elite wyches. Something that fits the fluff and separates them from the troops more. Why can't we get our own stealthy unit? Why can't we get highly training scout wyches with extra gear for more points that are even MORE killy?

And honestly, I feel like if we got some larger MC in heavy support, like, Fast beasts that were trained in the areas and let loose with some beast master wyches to escort it, like wraithguard, that would even be better.

However, I do like these ideas for the troops. I played a wych cult exclusively in 6th when I was active and had models and it did well. Shooting might be the more common part of the game right now but people really get surprised when all their shooting is reduced to nothing and assault happens now, based on watching it and getting to play a game with mostly melee chaos marines last weekend.

There is a rumor thread up on wyches...not sure if I believe it, but, it could be a good start.

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Utini2016
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Apr 04 2016, 04:11

Just a thought

Give them Shrouding  ability  at x cost.    X could be a cost per model increase or  hekatrix required .

This ability could be removed  ( wyches get into a frenzy  and cannot concentrate on forming the shroud) as feel no pain reaches its max by turn 3  or maybe turn 4 when furious charge kicks in.


This ability would make them excellent objective holder early on in a game granted but it has its limits after turn 3 or 4 depending on how the shrouding abitliy was implemented.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Apr 04 2016, 13:08

@Korazell wrote:
I also think we need BETTER options for elite wyches. Something that fits the fluff and separates them from the troops more. Why can't we get our own stealthy unit? Why can't we get highly training scout wyches with extra gear for more points that are even MORE killy?

@Utini2016 wrote:
Just a thought

Give them Shrouding ability at x cost. X could be a cost per model increase or hekatrix required .

This ability could be removed ( wyches get into a frenzy and cannot concentrate on forming the shroud) as feel no pain reaches its max by turn 3 or maybe turn 4 when furious charge kicks in.


This ability would make them excellent objective holder early on in a game granted but it has its limits after turn 3 or 4 depending on how the shrouding abitliy was implemented.

Shrouded gives a 5+ cover save in the open. That's not what I would call "excelent". And it goes completely against their fluff as well: Shrouded implies that the unit is carring some form of mobile cover around with them, like a smoke screen.

Mandrakes are our designated stealth unit. Fluffwise, they are better scouts than Wyches could ever hope to be, and there's no real point to be stealthy in an arena anyway. That's why Wyches are our melee grunts. Bloodbrides are supposedly veteran Wyches who have mastered more exotic weapons and deadlier techniques, but they are still all about frontal assaults.

And yes, I'm aware that neither of these units actually do what their fluff says. But I think making Wyches (and Mandrakes too) the unit they are supposed to be would be a better approach to fixing them than repurposing them to something different.

@Korazell wrote:
And honestly, I feel like if we got some larger MC in heavy support, like, Fast beasts that were trained in the areas and let loose with some beast master wyches to escort it, like wraithguard, that would even be better.

A Beast Pack with multiple Clawed Fiends is an option. It's not like they were big guys on Blood Bowl teams, where you can only have one.
Of course, there's quite a bit of room for improvement left on them too.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Apr 04 2016, 13:14

But mandrake are stealthy o.O

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Korazell
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Apr 04 2016, 15:42

I honestly forgot that we had mandrakes.

That's about how much I pay attention to them >_>;

Good points. How would we make bloodbrides more effective then?

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Utini2016
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Apr 05 2016, 00:11

Shrouded gives a 5+ cover save in the open. That's not what I would call "excelent". And it goes completely against their fluff as well: Shrouded implies that the unit is carring some form of mobile cover around with them, like a smoke screen.

Mandrakes are our designated stealth unit. Fluffwise, they are better scouts than Wyches could ever hope to be, and there's no real point to be stealthy in an arena anyway. That's why Wyches are our melee grunts. Bloodbrides are supposedly veteran Wyches who have mastered more exotic weapons and deadlier techniques, but they are still all about frontal assaults.

----------------------------

My wyches in all the years i used them alway always died to  standard range fire.   either  overwatch or  just  slaughtered  by range after  defeating an enemy they broke.  

Giving them Limited shroud(Like) ability would give more chance to survive incoming fire  which their wych suit never does.  the would make excellent attack through  cover troops  giving them  3 + cover in woods and 2 + in ruins.  To me arena does not mean just open ground and have at it like gladiatorial events in old rome.   Arena could be  cavern  or maze fight etc.

I agree weapon choices are not great for wyches and  the Osifactor or Liquefier gunwould make more sense on the wyches than wracks to me.   Make it so  Bloodbride could take more of these weapon like  Truebones do.  

Wyches  1 osifactor  ,  2Liquefier gun.   Bllodbride utp to 4  mix match osifactor , liquified guns.

The idea being that wyches and bloodbrids would soften up their targe they intend to charge  with these weapons and finish them off  with  close combat.

Just some ideas of mine.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Apr 05 2016, 00:42

@Utini2016 wrote:
My wyches in all the years i used them alway always died to  standard range fire.   either  overwatch or  just  slaughtered  by range after  defeating an enemy they broke.  

Giving them Limited shroud(Like) ability would give more chance to survive incoming fire  which their wych suit never does.  the would make excellent attack through  cover troops  giving them  3 + cover in woods and 2 + in ruins.  To me arena does not mean just open ground and have at it like gladiatorial events in old rome.   Arena could be  cavern  or maze fight etc.

I mentioned this in an earlier post; but how about Jink? It gives a 4+ cover save in the open, you only need to sacrifice your BS for it, and it's perfectly fluffy for a unit that defends by dodging.

@Utini2016 wrote:
I agree weapon choices are not great for wyches and  the Osifactor or Liquefier gunwould make more sense on the wyches than wracks to me.   Make it so  Bloodbride could take more of these weapon like  Truebones do.  

Wyches  1 osifactor  ,  2Liquefier gun.   Bllodbride utp to 4  mix match osifactor , liquified guns.

The idea being that wyches and bloodbrids would soften up their targe they intend to charge  with these weapons and finish them off  with  close combat.

Just some ideas of mine.

Back in the 3rd edition, Wyches had access to Shredders for that purpose.
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Utini2016
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Apr 05 2016, 02:02

Heya Rokuro

I do apologize i did not read all 8 pages.   Jink or a version of it for infantry  sound good too.    what is the sacrafice  for this ability ?   Weapon skill an or initiive ? (bikes sacrafice shooting for Jink) the wyches would have to sacrifice something to make jink fair unless it was point increase per model.


Yea i know about the Shredder in 3rd (I converted my Wyches with Shredder /Blaster models to scourges)  but i rather like  the  Liquefier gun as it fits well with assault troops.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Apr 05 2016, 06:54

@Utini2016 wrote:
Jink or a version of it for infantry  sound good too.    what is the sacrafice  for this ability ?   Weapon skill an or initiive ?  (bikes sacrafice shooting for Jink)  the wyches would have to sacrifice something to make jink fair unless  it was  point increase per model.

Yea i know about the Shredder in 3rd (I converted my Wyches with Shredder /Blaster models to scourges)  but i rather like  the  Liquefier gun as it fits well with assault troops.

While it is a default rule for fliers and bikes, nowhere does the rule book say that Jink is an exclusive rule for these unit types.
And if Wyches had any kind of template weapon, snapfiring would be kind of a big deal, because it would prevent them from using these guns for a turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Apr 06 2016, 00:01

Sounds good to me Rokuro now if only GW would her your idea Cool.
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