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 Idea Fixing Wyches

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 15:18

That's why I added the second sentence...

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 16:48

Hello everyone, long time listener first time poster! I've been playing Dark Eldar for just over a year now and I, like you, want the wych cults to be more functional.

Idea A: As mentioned earlier, make them function similar to the War Dancers of Wood Elves. This can be done by giving the Wyches access to all combat drugs, and they can jump between them each round. You could even switch it up to 3 different drugs.

1. +1 S +1 T - Steroids
2. +1 I +1 A - Speed
3. +1 WS +1 BS - Focusyn

If at anytime the player selects the same drug 2 rounds in a row an unmodified toughness test is made. If failed the unit suffers d3 wounds with no saves. Overdose.

I also am a fan of the idea that Wyches can disembark and assault after a vehicle has moved Flat Out, or after appearing from a Webway Portal (not normal deep strike). Maybe make it an initiative test (fail on 6 d6 wounds).
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 16:56

@Sarkesian wrote:

1. +1 S +1 T - Steroids
2. +1 I +1 A - Speed
3. +1 WS +1 BS - Focusyn

The trouble is, two of those are basically worthless.

+1A is pretty meaningless when so many of their attacks do nothing, and +1I is outright useless unless you're trying to out-melee genestealers for some reason.

+1WS is poor for the same reason +1A is poor and +1BS... why? Neutral
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 17:21

Just ideas that can be easily changed. Maybe change the 2nd option +1 A and +1 to dodge in the fight subphase.

The 3rd option could be easily fixed as well. Maybe make it +2 WS (Mechanicus get this with a minus to BS) and rend?

3 good options in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 18:49

The second option sounds like fun with a +1 dodge Smile
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Cherrycoke
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 19:46

I think, fluff wise i'd like to see WS5 to represent the fact they're gladitorial fighters, and hitting Marines on 3 up instead of 4's would somewhat make up a touch for the fact you lose a lot of your dice trying to wound with s3. Or possibly 2 attacks base. Subtle boosts at least.

I like the fact when they're actually in combat they can tarpit powerful enemies for several turns, It's actually underated how long they can tie down super killy stuff that you absolutely dont want to fight/ get shot by.
But the risk of getting them in there and how fragile they are don't justify the X points a man tarpit unit (plus transport).

I don't know, I hate the idea of overloading them with rules that don't fit the fluff, just because GW sucks at keeping consistency with their codex strength. An Arms-race would be awful for 40k in the longrun. But you'd assume they have to do -something- because they're quite frankly a bit useless  and it's a damn shame because they're lovely models that  9/10 DE players would buy.
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 20:38

I always thought whyches should use their initiative as their toughness in CC but not for instant death, eliminate dodge, as this would represent their being nearly impossible to hit already. Then give them rending(bladestorm style). That's it, those two simple additions make them awesome at CC against almost everything with T but still makes them weak to shooting, something they should be for balance. I'd also then give them whych weapons that benefit the unit, for example make shard nets count as defensive grenades Etc.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 21:02

@Red Corsair wrote:
I always thought whyches should use their initiative as their toughness in CC but not for instant death, eliminate dodge, as this would represent their being nearly impossible to hit already. Then give them rending(bladestorm style). That's it, those two simple additions make them awesome at CC against almost everything with T but still makes them weak to shooting, something they should be for balance. I'd also then give them whych weapons that benefit the unit, for example make shard nets count as defensive grenades Etc.

I like where your head is at here, but I wouldn't want to get rid of the dodge save. It also wouldn't be very fluffy in the instances where a big lumbering S8 character is able to wound them without any sort of dodge save applying. Slow but strong characters would be able to kill them easily.

That would, however, make them effectively T6 in melee, which I doubt anyone would ever allow at 10 points per model. And if that was the ONLY change they made to them, I don't think they'd be that much more useful than they are now. T3 vs. shooting but T6 in melee, with only a 6+ armor save in CC when wounded? Doesn't sound great. Marines are wounding them on 5's without an effective save.

Without doing the math, I'd say marines would be better or at least just as effective at killing wyches as they are now. That would only make wyches marginally more effective against guardsmen or grots.


Of course, if you make that change but KEEP the dodge save, they become a fantastic tarpit unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 21:10

@Cherrycoke wrote:
I think, fluff wise i'd like to see WS5 to represent the fact they're gladitorial fighters, and hitting Marines on 3 up instead of 4's would somewhat make up a touch for the fact you lose a lot of your dice trying to wound with s3. Or possibly 2 attacks base. Subtle boosts at least.
I think Wyches should have both WS5 and 2 attacks base. I'm thinking something like:

Wych
WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A2 Ld8 Sv6+

Hekatrix and Bloodbrides
WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A3 Ld9 Sv6+

Syren
WS6 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I7 A3 Ld9 Sv6+

Add to their current special rules Move through Cover and, instead of Rending, a lesser version of Caress of Death - To Hit rolls of 6 in CC cause a single automatic Wound, regardless of target’s Toughness, resolved at AP2. Maybe make it resolved at AP3 so as not to encroach on Incubi's territory.

---

Quite frankly, there's no reason they shouldn't have a statline comparable to Harlequins given the fluff around the Dance of the Blinding Blade where every 17yrs, Wyches from the Cult of the Seventh Woe compete in a martial contest against a visiting Harlequin troupe.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 21:45

You could basically use their I score and let them subtract points from I and give it to A, S, WS and Special rule (hatred, rending, AP3, shred). That would create a unit that is extremely good in fighting low I opponents (as you can risk to put more into other values) and also pose a reasonable risk vs reward system if you decide to go I1 to stack stats and rules.

For Example:

Wych fighting a space marine:

We want her to still strike first against I4 so we get only 1 point to spend.
In this case we try rending as we still have a lot of attacks.

We also could go and say "screw it we let the marines strike first and go down to I1"
In this case the wych would have 5 points to spend and the stats could look like this:

WS5 BS4 S4 T3 W1 I1 A2 Ld8 Sv4++ Hatred, Shred, AP3

This is a serious glascannon that still suffers from beeing killed esily (even more so as the marines would strike first) but could do actual damag even if only a few survive.


Last edited by Klaivex Charondyr on Wed Jan 13 2016, 11:05; edited 1 time in total
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 22:08

@Erebus wrote:
@Cherrycoke wrote:
I think, fluff wise i'd like to see WS5 to represent the fact they're gladitorial fighters, and hitting Marines on 3 up instead of 4's would somewhat make up a touch for the fact you lose a lot of your dice trying to wound with s3. Or possibly 2 attacks base. Subtle boosts at least.
I think Wyches should have both WS5 and 2 attacks base. I'm thinking something like:

Wych
WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A2 Ld8 Sv6+

Hekatrix and Bloodbrides
WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A3 Ld9 Sv6+

Syren
WS6 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I7 A3 Ld9 Sv6+

Add to their current special rules Move through Cover and, instead of Rending, a lesser version of Caress of Death - To Hit rolls of 6 in CC cause a single automatic Wound, regardless of target’s Toughness, resolved at AP2.

I like all of this, except I'd like to see Syrens get +1W. Syrens are basically the equivalent to an elder aspect exarch in role, points, and slot. May as well be their equal in wounds.

Also, I cut out the part about AP2 possibly encroaching on Incubi territory. It doesn't, really, any more than reavers rending rule does. Incubi are still the go-to unit for reliable AP2. Rending is the poor man's substitute.

That said, Incubi could use some changes too. With the elimination of grenade launchers on ICs propegating to the unit, it's difficult to take advantage of their high initiative in combat, but you definitely pay for it in points. So if these changes WERE made to wyches, it would probably be difficult to justify taking incubi at more than double the cost. But that's more a problem with the incubi than a problem with the proposed changes to wyches.

Personally, I'd like to see the above suggestions implemented even if it bumped the cost per wych up a few points per model. I think 13/model would be justified with those changes.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 22:28

I actually meant to give Syrens 2 wounds, to put them in line with Troupe Masters.

While Incubi would obviously still be the go-to for AP2, since they have it unconditionally, I was undecided if Wyches are justified is having it, particularly since I wasn't actually thinking about increasing their points cost.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 12 2016, 23:04

I'd suggest that Syrens still be I6 - I think an Archon should be slightly faster.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 13 2016, 01:22

@Erebus wrote:
I actually meant to give Syrens 2 wounds, to put them in line with Troupe Masters.

While Incubi would obviously still be the go-to for AP2, since they have it unconditionally, I was undecided if Wyches are justified is having it, particularly since I wasn't actually thinking about increasing their points cost.

The proposed changes would make Wyches superior, almost universally, to Harlequins, so I think you were right to not consider it. There would need to be some drawbacks, or a points hike;otherwise:

The Wyches would be cheaper, with the same access the pseudo-rending, and a better save in combat, with wych weapon access. Imagine gauntlets - rerolling wounds with the pseudo-rending -  Cego's Rose on a 15 point model.

This way, the only plus side for the clowns would be Flip Belts, and the 5++ outside of combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 13 2016, 02:01

That's a 5++ against all shooting that Wyches don't have. Harlequins also have better wargear (both standard and bought), arguably transport, as well as Furious Charge from the start, and Hit and Run. Harlies would still be superior to Wyches, even with the changes, in my opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 13 2016, 02:13

@Erebus wrote:
That's a 5++ against all shooting that Wyches don't have. Harlequins also have better wargear (both standard and bought), arguably transport, as well as Furious Charge from the start, and Hit and Run. Harlies would still be superior to Wyches, even with the changes, in my opinion.

The 5++ to shooting is the one I absolutely bow to, but I honestly feel that most of the other bonuses would not be worth the extra points one must pay to acquire these clowns.

Furious Charge is nice, but it wouldn't matter quite as much if we had that sweet, wannabe-rending  special rule.

Hit and Run is nice, but with Wyches you'd rarely ever want to because all that means is tanking a second overwatch. Even for Harlies, it applies. 5++ is still weak vs repeated overwatch.

EDIT - As for wargear, I'd assume the upgrade for this rending would be taken frequently if it was needed. If it was simply a standard special rule, we'd pick up Wych Weapons to get more re rolls. Yes, Wych shooting is weak. But normally we don't want to shoot with them - we might not make the charge distance if we do.

I can't speak for transports a lot, as I do not know a heck of a lot about Harly transports. However, I thought only raiders had 10 capacity, which is usually the auto squad size for Wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 13 2016, 10:08

@hydranixx wrote:

Furious Charge is nice, but it wouldn't matter quite as much if we had that sweet, wannabe-rending  special rule.

No, it would still be very important. Nice as Pseudo Rending is, you can't rely on just 1/6 wounds doing anything to win combats alone.

@hydranixx wrote:

Hit and Run is nice, but with Wyches you'd rarely ever want to because all that means is tanking a second overwatch. Even for Harlies, it applies. 5++ is still weak vs repeated overwatch.

Bear in mind that Hit&Run has a lot of other tactical implications. e.g. escaping from an unwinnable combat (possibly against a vehicle you cant hurt) without the risk of being cut down. Or, getting out of combat at the end of the enemy turn so that you can shoot that unit to death in your turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 13 2016, 10:18

Give them a Dodge save that applies to the entire assault phase, Rending, Hit & Run and a special rule that they each make 1 bonus Attack for each point that their Initiative is higher than the opponent’s Initiative characteristic on any turn in which they charge.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 13 2016, 16:51

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Give them a Dodge save that applies to the entire assault phase, Rending, Hit & Run and a special rule that they  each make 1 bonus Attack for each point that their Initiative is higher than the opponent’s Initiative characteristic on any turn in which they charge.

This would make for a fairly terrifying CC unit, for sure. I think all of this absolutely fits their fluff, but that they might then be considered OP if kept at their current price per model.

However, bumping their PPM up to 13/model with those rules would be justified and comparable to existing units in other codices, I think. Then have Hekatrix/bloodbrides be the same except with +1WS, +1I, and +1Ld. Bloodbrides would have more access to special weapons, and syrens could have +1A, +1I and +1W from a Hekatrix.

Having that ability that works off their initiative would also make the combat drugs that improve initiative worth something.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 13 2016, 17:14

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Give them a Dodge save that applies to the entire assault phase, Rending, Hit & Run and a special rule that they  each make 1 bonus Attack for each point that their Initiative is higher than the opponent’s Initiative characteristic on any turn in which they charge.

This would make for a fairly terrifying CC unit, for sure. I think all of this absolutely fits their fluff, but that they might then be considered OP if kept at their current price per model.

I don't think so. What you have to remember is that all this is on a T3 unit with no save outside of combat. Hence, even bolters and lasguns are a serious threat to them - and stuff like Wyverns, Scatter Lasers, TFCs etc. will just shred them.

Yes, they're only 10pts, but as it stands they're not worth even half of that. Moreover, you have a very real diminishing returns problem because, as above, their basic frame is so unbelievably fragile.

If anything, this might actually turn them into the glass cannons they were always supposed to be, and make wych armies viable.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 13 2016, 22:45

@The Shredder wrote:

Yes, they're only 10pts, but as it stands they're not worth even half of that. Moreover, you have a very real diminishing returns problem because, as above, their basic frame is so unbelievably fragile.

Oh, they're worth half of that, for sure. As I said in an earlier post, if you made them exactly as they are now, except able to be taken in squads of up to 20-25 at 6 points/model, they'd be worth it. They'd be the best tarpits in the game, and able to overpower smaller, more expensive squads under weight of attacks. They'd also sell more models for GW since they'd only be effective in bulk.

That said, I don't encourage that sort of change. That's just the lowest expectation we as fans should have of GW: to give us something useable.

I absolutely think the changes Adhemar suggested would make wyches what the fluff says they're supposed to be, with the appropriate changes to bloodbrides/heks/syrens. I just think that by doing so, it would make them worth every bit of 13 points/model. Compare them with those abilities to the 13/model banshee and tell me which you'd prefer at 13 points.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 13 2016, 23:12

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Oh, they're worth half of that, for sure. As I said in an earlier post, if you made them exactly as they are now, except able to be taken in squads of up to 20-25 at 6 points/model, they'd be worth it. They'd be the best tarpits in the game, and able to overpower smaller, more expensive squads under weight of attacks. They'd also sell more models for GW since they'd only be effective in bulk.

That said, I don't encourage that sort of change. That's just the lowest expectation we as fans should have of GW: to give us something useable.

Oh, I wouldn't want that either - I was more saying that they need a lot of stuff added just to be worth their current cost. Hence, increasing their cost might be rather unwise.

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I absolutely think the changes Adhemar suggested would make wyches what the fluff says they're supposed to be, with the appropriate changes to bloodbrides/heks/syrens. I just think that by doing so, it would make them worth every bit of 13 points/model. Compare them with those abilities to the 13/model banshee and tell me which you'd prefer at 13 points.

Are Banshees the best comparison? I thought they were considered pretty bad even by non-Eldar standards (save for the Exarch). Though, I could be thinking of older editions.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 13 2016, 23:30

EXAMPLE: If you made them have all the changes Adhemar suggested without a points increase, I'd run a list that looks like this and ROFLstomp people with melee shenanigans turn 2:

HQ:
Lhamaean in a venom w/2 splinter cannons & grisly trophies
TROOPS:
60 wyches in raiders with dissies
ELITE:
30 bloodbrides in raiders with dissies
FA:
2 Razorwing Jetfighters w/dark lances
1850 points

This list would crush just about anything I could imagine that doesn't utterly destroy them all before round 2. Flat out everything round 1 into the enemy's face. Jink against anything shooting at you. Rending on the wyches he described would chew vehicles up like no other. It would give the potential on every attack to damage up to AV12, and wyches would have something like 8 attacks per model against vehicles, since vehicles are considered initiative 1 in CC if I recall correctly. And I'd never purchase special weapons because buying another wych/bride is simply a more efficient use of points. Furthermore, the basic wych model has the potential to kill ANYTHING else in the game in CC. They can't hurt air, of course, which is where the jetfighters come in. They're armed with dark lances in case your opponent has planes, and if not, they drop 4 missiles on troops/vehicles.

The only thing I could see them having trouble with is massed AV13+ on all vehicle facings, but that's not very common in any meta I've played in recently. They'd chew up light-medium vehicles, hordes, CC units, orks, whatever you could throw at them.

Yes, they'd die in droves to concentrated fire outside of assaults/charges, assuming you're able to shoot at them outside their transports. They'd be cheap models that have access to cheap skimmers that can traverse the entire table on turn 1, guaranteed charge turn 2 for any that survive, and they'd beat everything. It might sound fun and fluffy, but at 10 points, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be balanced. 13 points is definitely better, in my opinion. Won't be so spamable.

But you're right, 13 point wyches with the previously described abilities wouldn't be the same as banshees, they'd be better since they'd have the ability to hurt T7+ and vehicles, unlike the S3 banshees.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 13 2016, 23:55

I think fixing wyches should be something simple.

Like some have mentioned give them the 4++ against overwatch and something to make them a little better in combat like bladestorm for combat or +3 inches to their charge range or something. Poison options etc.

I love wyches, but just can't find a good place for them in there current state.
Right now they are arguably the worst troop in the game. Some small changes would go a long ways to making them viable.
I own about 40-50 wyches. I would like to use them

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Thu Jan 14 2016, 00:45

I agree, but think wyches need more than "a little something". Right now they're terrible, and 4++ against overwatch and +3 inches charge range alone won't really change that.

I have 60 wyches myself that I'd like to use. I used to run 2 CADs of haywyches in venoms in our last codex.

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