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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Jan 03 2016, 22:17

"interesting" was referring to sentences like 400 year or stuff like that.

Thanks for clearing that for me. Anyway: I'm glad that chapter House won the trial. Well. At least didn't lose.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Jan 03 2016, 22:26

Shall we try to move this back onto topic now chaps? - Count Adhemar

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 04 2016, 00:09

Indeed. Fix wyches, and while you're at it, give us a new codex pls, thx.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 04 2016, 04:26

My feelings on this is I'd rather use an existing USR or boost stats than create one-off special rules, especially one-off rules that largely exist to make "the Eldar version" OK in specific cases but weaker overall (ex: "brightlances have lance compared to lascannons so we'll give them worse range and strength to compensate!").

For comparison look at the Imperial Death Cult Assassin, it just straight up has ws5, s4, i6 with two power swords and an inv sv that's on all the time. Its stats are easy to remember and nobody really worries about them punching rhinos and buildings to death while dodging overwatch flamers.

So giving Wyches the same treatment they'd be...
ws5
rending melee attacks (wych weapons)
5++

Blood Brides get...
ws6
a2
ld9
"for every 5 bloodbrides, two can exchange wych weapons for venom blade/power weapon for 5-10 points"

An Archite gets...
4++

Lelith gets...
3++
rending on 5+
rampage USR to replace that 'compare ws and get bonus attacks' rule
Preferred Enemy (everything) because she has killed everything in the arena at some point in her very long career

Their 5++ would be wasted on cheap horde units so you're incentivized to send them against your foe's elite assault troops. Also keep in mind that 3 s3 rending attacks is only as good as a guardsman's lone krak grenade vs armor. If you want to assault horde units, use wracks.

As for combat drugs... I'd prefer to just discard the table and have it grant "Preferred Enemy (everything)" to represent a general increase in combat abilities mixed with gladiatorial experience against anything and everything in the galaxy DE can drag into the webway. If a table must be kept though I'd revise it to...

1-2: +1 ws, +1i, crusader USR (individually relatively minor effects so they're lumped together)
3-4: +1 attack
5-6: +1 t ('waaaaagh!')

So any of these results will be useful against most armies, though option 1 is a bit better vs very elite armies and still the dud vs guardsmen/tau.

Trying to keep all of the drug results useful for a variety of situations and weapons, it's disappointing to get +1 strength with your agonizer user.

---

Haywire grenades should go to Hellions. Hellions fluff-wise have to fight against kabalite raiders in the mean spires of commoragh, so the imagery of hellions swooping in to haywire a raider out of the sky then slice up the disembarke kabalites is cool.

I'd also let them choose between Beast and Jump pack movement for their skyboards so they can also expertly skateboard through difficult terrain like a drugged up space elf ninja Marty McFly
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 04 2016, 07:08

Not really a fan of most of your changes to Lelith, and she already has rampage. She also doesn't have the compare WS and get extra attacks thing. It changed to rerolling both to hit and wound in challenges. Do you have the newer DE codex? The rending on 5+ could be cool though, and would be representative of her fluff. She could get that without losing other rules though. I actually think just adding basic 6+ rending alone would make her significantly better, since she'd have a chance to auto-wound with her abysmal strength but high number of attacks.

Also, strength may not be useful on your agonizer user, but it's certainly useful on your 60 non-agonizer wyches. And we're trying to make wyches good enough to justify taking them as core troops, since that's what they're supposed to be. Therefore, I can't get behind your drug changes either. You took out the 1 I want the most. The T is OK. It's mostly still on models that have crap saves, so it doesn't make a huge difference.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 04 2016, 09:23

I wonder what purpose they had in mind when they created the witch rules...?
They are clearly not made to fight things like Space Marines. They must have had something in mind like gladiators dancing along and between other and lesser foes. The question is:
Are they good enough to kill mobs of Orks or gaunt or guard units?

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 04 2016, 11:51

Quote :
Are they good enough to kill mobs of Orks or gaunt or guard units?

Nope. At least no cost efficient.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 04 2016, 12:01

@CptMetal wrote:
Are they good enough to kill mobs of Orks or gaunt or guard units?

I can't be bothered to run the numbers but the basic gist is that they can inflict casualties in combat against such targets (generally low Toughness and poor armour save) but will usually be outnumbered at least 2 to 1 so they won't last long. And that's without even considering the issue of getting them into the combat in the first place and not dying in droves from any shooting attack (and overwatch).

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 04 2016, 14:47

Being outnumbered is not always an issue.
I once charge 10wyches vs 5scouts. Make no hits, scout kill one wych, i fail LD test and run. They cauth me at swepping advance. Razz

Maybe they should get crusader as general rule or CD option as well as charachteristics buff?

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 04 2016, 17:11

Last game in which I encountered wyches, I wiped them out with a experiment I took just to fill up some left over points.  At 2 WS, 3 I, no armor, no grenades, and no chance to shoot (part of a special rule), 20 mutant rabble were surprisingly more than an equal point value of wyches could handle.

I should mention this was probably 8-9 months ago.  Don't think I've seen them used since.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 04 2016, 17:26

@CptMetal wrote:
They must have had something in mind like gladiators dancing along and between other and lesser foes.

You give them too much credit. Someone once had a vision for what DE & wyches were. He wrote the 5th ed codex(even though wyches still weren't GREAT). But whoever wrote the 7th ed codex wasn't working off of vision. It was a clear corporate mission priority codex with 2 objectives:

1. Clear all characters and units that don't have models out of the codex so no other company can make models that we haven't made ourselves.

2. Sell some models that historically haven't sold too well. (Scourges and Mandrakes)

Everything that didn't fit those 2 mission priorities was a copy & paste job that brought nothing new to our codex, except the inexplicable nerfs to wyches, a nerf to beastpacks, the change to phantasm grenade launchers no longer giving both assault and defensive grenades taking away our 1 way to get grenades in assault units, and the creation of a new damage system(soulfright) that, at it's inception, is already not effective versus half of the available armies.

Yes, our latest codex is a train wreck of corporate spite and greed. There was no vision here.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 04 2016, 17:39

I don`t think they realy wanted to sell scourges or mandrakes. First selling well already (MPO) and second are still losers of some sort. I think they was aiming at Voidraven and Razorwings sellings, as well as new characters models and haemi suppl.

But nobody ever have vision about DE. How they should feel themselves at this period? What they battlefield role shall be? How they must confront other armies (especialy modern ones). I mentioned before, that Necrons was released a couple of months after DE. It`s obviously not a quick thing to do (i mean codex release), so some rules and stuff in ongoing codexes are surely known to personal, that work on different armies.

So they probably just will release new DE codex in 2-3 years. Woooopieee!
Oh, and yes. I agreed about special charachters. When i started this hobby (just when 5th ed DE was released) GW said that they would gladly see conversions of charachters and units. "Send a picture to us" - was on their website. With this kind of politics soon we can take on a table ONLY original GW models. Not conversions, count-as or even old redactions. Not speaking about proksy...

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 04 2016, 18:23

@Devilogical wrote:

But nobody ever have vision about DE. How they should feel themselves at this period? What they battlefield role shall be? How they must confront other armies (especialy modern ones).

This is something I tried to deal with in the rules development section Here.

But ya, there is no cohesive strategy behind wyches or the dark eldar in general.  If there were a unique interaction (like maybe splinter weapons could fire into wyches' combat because wyches instinctively know to dodge, or took an antidote before the battle), Then there might be a reason to field varied troops.

But ya, there's no synergy, so no reason to diversify or include anything less than our "best" options of warriors/venoms/grots/reavers depending on which slot you're filling.

This might actually go back to the fluff.  Dark eldar view each other as enemies, and often use battles as excuses to eliminate rivals.  They never fully support each other because they never fully trust each other.  As far as an effective military goes - This just wouldn't work out.  They also live in the strictest of meritocracies, where the strong get stronger, and the weak either learn how to suck it up, and/or perish in horrible ways.

If they really fleshed this out though, each unit should be basically be a frighteningly effective/expensive character surrounded by weaker underlings.  To some extent the army has worked like that (Like wyches being nothing more than an agonizer delivery system), but none of the (non-independent) characters have ever been strong enough to make the strategy work out.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 05 2016, 02:16

You might be on to something stilgar. One way to make wyches interesting, IMO, would be to make their sarge unit far and away better than their underlings. If a Hekatrix got +1WS, +1 on the power from pain table, and +1 attack from what they have now, the entire unit could then be viewed as an effective agonizer delivery system, where the Hekatrix was the superstar. It might actually be WORTH it to buy a few extra wych bodies to pad your Hekatrix's approach.

That would also simultaneously solve the problem with Bloodbrides, making them markedly better than wyches. Syren's would also get +1WS and +1 attack froom what they have now. It'd give them the feel of the elite combatants they're supposed to be without going outside their roles with haywire, and without making them OP on a model by model basis. The sarge models will be higher power than most other factions sarge units, able to put on a good show, while the basic troopers still fall like flunkies under an armored space marine gauntlet.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 05 2016, 10:12

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
If a Hekatrix got +1WS, +1 on the power from pain table, and +1 attack from what they have now, the entire unit could then be viewed as an effective agonizer delivery system, where the Hekatrix was the superstar.

Except that the agoniser is a festering pile of overpriced garbage.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 05 2016, 10:24

@The Shredder wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
If a Hekatrix got +1WS, +1 on the power from pain table, and +1 attack from what they have now, the entire unit could then be viewed as an effective agonizer delivery system, where the Hekatrix was the superstar.

Except that the agoniser is a festering pile of overpriced garbage.

It's garbage because it's overpriced. The weapon itself is pretty good if it was costed appropriately.

As for the Wych idea, I'm sorry but 45 points for a T3, single wound model with no armour save is just horrendous!

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 05 2016, 10:29

@Count Adhemar wrote:

It's garbage because it's overpriced. The weapon itself is pretty good if it was costed appropriately.

If it cost 15pts, it would be 'okay', I think. Not good, just okay.

I mean, even on an army with better strength, a Power Sword with 4+ poison wouldn't be anything to write home about, Most likely they'd just ignore it and take stuff like Power Fists instead.

But, as the primary (and practically the only) weapon for a glass cannon race? Ugh.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 05 2016, 12:28

Tbh, when it comes to the role of DE close combat units in general, they should complement the weaknesses of of our poison weapons: amored units and low thoughness.

Wyches should be the ones who kill low thoughness units with ease and laugh at them, while having decent success with armored foes like Space Marines as well. Of course, they are getting crushed by TEQs.

Bloodbrides are in the middle between Wyches and Incubi and can bring down heavier and more difficult targets but still struggle against TEQs. Similar to trueborn they can all take Wych weapons to really give them a purpose (see below).

So I actually would not give Wyches and Bloodbrides fancy rules or rending by default, but rather give them a general buff (like +1 WS, dodge against overwatch or -1 WS for enemies in CC) and move the special rules more to Wych weapons instead.

But unlike now, WW should really make a diference and have rules like rending, +1S, AP3, +1A, +2 Poison (Venom Blades) etc. (these are the only ones I could think of right now I am sure there would be better rules).

That leaves only Incubi who should shred TEQ but are overkill against everything else. Naturally, Incubi are a topic of their own.

Edit: Of course there are still other units like Mandrakes, Hellions or Wracks but they should be unique in their own. And I think Wracks should be more like covenite Trueborn anyway (with more useful weapons to choose from).
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 05 2016, 12:57

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Tbh, when it comes to the role of DE close combat units in general, they should complement the weaknesses of of our poison weapons: amored units and low thoughness.

Agreed, though there are other units to consider too - vehicles, GCs etc.

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

Wyches should be the ones who kill low thoughness units with ease and laugh at them, while having decent success with armored foes like Space Marines as well. Of course, they are getting crushed by TEQs.

Bloodbrides are in the middle between Wyches and Incubi and can bring down heavier and more difficult targets but still struggle against TEQs. Similar to trueborn they can all take Wych weapons to really give them a purpose (see below).

My issue with this is that it seems this will make Wyches overspecialised. Do we really need a unit that can only kill T3 units (even if it kills them very well)? And, if so, is there a reason you'd use Wyches over Grotesques - which are also vastly more durable?
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 05 2016, 14:11

Plus, although splinter weaponry is not overly efficient against T3, we bring it in such huger amounts anyway that I question the need to have a melee unit dedicated to killing such targets. Given the difficulty in getting Wyches into combat in the first place, splinter weaponry seems a much better option.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 05 2016, 14:12

@The Shredder wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Tbh, when it comes to the role of DE close combat units in general, they should complement the weaknesses of of our poison weapons: amored units and low thoughness.

Agreed, though there are other units to consider too - vehicles, GCs etc.

True. But I don' think the only answer to those lies in close combat. We should have more access to ranged Fleshbane (imagine Fleshbane Rifles on Trueborn) and have a third main heavy weapon apart from Dark Lances and Disintegrator Cannons which are dedicated vehicle killers.

Nonetheless, I am not against Wyches being able to do at least something against vehicles.

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

Wyches should be the ones who kill low thoughness units with ease and laugh at them, while having decent success with armored foes like Space Marines as well. Of course, they are getting crushed by TEQs.

Bloodbrides are in the middle between Wyches and Incubi and can bring down heavier and more difficult targets but still struggle against TEQs. Similar to trueborn they can all take Wych weapons to really give them a purpose (see below).

My issue with this is that it seems this will make Wyches overspecialised. Do we really need a unit that can only kill T3 units (even if it kills them very well)? And, if so, is there a reason you'd use Wyches over Grotesques - which are also vastly more durable?[/quote]

My intention was not to make them a dedicated T3 counter but rather let them not stuggle to kill a bunch of GEQs. I see that as mandatory, not as special feature Razz.

Good point about Grotesques, though. But now I realize that I forgot to mention that 3/9 Wyches should be able to take those special weapons.

Compared to grots, maybe Wyches should also be made somewhat cheaper and turn them into our glass cannon melee choice "kill fast or get killed fast". A unit that can potentially jump from one fight to the other and is most vulnerable when getting shot up. Lower model cost would synergize well with them, as it would not be that mandatory to keep them alive (after all, there are more where they come from).

Therefore, Grots should be an overall more safer choice but you should be able to achieve what Grots can with Wyches too, only that they are more risky to use due to their fragility but also cost less.
And don't forget that they can also take objectives and Venoms. I think this is the point that would speak most for Wyches.

I see it from this side: Right now a Grot costs about as much as 3.5 Wyches but grots just bring so much to the table, I don't think Wyches will ever compete with Grots on their current point level unless you make them stupidly powerful.

So why not see it from the other side and keep Wyches simple, fragile (dodge should still apply to overwatch nonetheless), make them cheaper (8 points?) and give them more versatility with Wych Weapons (where you can take what really hurts your enemy). I don't claim to be an expert but that sounds reasonable to me.
Or maybe 9 points with WS5? Sorry, I can't do the number crunching.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 05 2016, 16:18

What if they will get some special rule, allowing them to charge after they arrive frome reserve via transport? Or maybe ability to charge into combat after sweep. Like harlequins in Serpent`s brood formation can embark on transort after they do hit-and-run.

The more i think about them, the more i want them to be like clowns, not the gladiators Embarassed

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 05 2016, 20:01

@Devilogical wrote:
What if they will get some special rule, allowing them to charge after they arrive frome reserve via transport? Or maybe ability to charge into combat after sweep. Like harlequins in Serpent`s brood formation can embark on transort after they do hit-and-run.

This would be nice.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Tue Jan 05 2016, 20:31

To be honest. They can't nerf them even more. They must see that no one is buying this kit anymore so next codex they should be better off.

At least I hope so

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Wed Jan 06 2016, 04:47

The way I see various ideal assault unit roles for DE...

Wych- general cc unit that can tarpit elite cc (inv sv is handy for that)
Bloodbride- more offensive oriented than wyches due to more special weapons but more expensive
Incubi- anti heavy infantry and possibly light vehicles
Hellion- haywire grenades for anti armor, crack open transport and assault the contents
Reavers- vector strike with super speed across the tabletop
Beastpack- every beast is ideal at nullifying certain kinds of assault units, mobile and resilient
Wracks- anti-horde CC, better for grinding through mobs than wyches and incubi for their price
Grotesque- tarpit and screen for footsloggers, anti light armor
Talos- anti monster, distraction carnifex duty. Beast Movement!


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