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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 03:15

What would people think about giving wyches an ability similar to grav weapons, but in melee?

Basically, with them being super agile and all, it would reflect the idea that the more lumbering and heavily armored their opponent, the easier it is for them to put a dagger in his eye.

Obviously fiddling with numbers and costs would need to occur, but what do people think of the idea as a whole?

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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 03:33

i think it could work out. wyches have trouble wounding everything and this might give em a punch. maybe have a T limit to the effect, like unable to wound T7+ until S4
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 03:35

Personally, it'd make more sense to tie it to Initiative. After all, done your way it's easier for the Wyches to kill a Captain in Artificer armour than it is to kill an Ork Boy with his leather jacket. Making it Initiative-based would make it a bit more realistic.

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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 03:39

monofilament style
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 04:37

Hey, good idea Aroshamash. Not opposed to reworking the idea at all. Wyches just obviously need SOMETHING. Having an ability to wound somehow dependent on their opponent's initiative would be awesome.

Something unique and wychy.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 09:33

Just give them rending.

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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 10:14

It`s more likely for GW to make them cost 30pts each, no dodge, WS 3 and STR 2, than to do anything that buff them a litle

Oh, and maybe they will get a formation in new dex, which will give them +1 ws and str if u take like 40 of them, with no transport and maybe a succubus as a leader

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 11:09

I would like to see a bonus to charge range AND to hits of a 6 add an additional hit which has the poison rule ALSO the ability to take 2 hexatrix in units of 6 or more wyches...and free Wych weapons on the Hekatrixes.
Then a formation rule allowing 6 wyches per venom, and the ability to leap clear of explosions on an Initiative test.
#playable
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 13:08

The trouble with basing it on Initiative is that they become awful against Orks and Necrons.
You get same problem as the Grav idea, in that it would make Wyches quite good against other combat heavy units, but quite poor against for example Initiative 2 Gretchin.
(I'm making the assumption the Initiative idea was "better vs high Initiative", because thats where it would be most useful)

I've thought that Rending really did make the most sense for Wyches.
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daveyo
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 13:55

Disagree on rending...they should be fast and slice up hordes, dancing away from harm in a most infuriating way and taking great pleasure in tarpitting and dissecting a foe BUT should not be can openers...that's what Incubi are for.
More attacks, more speed, more slippery and evasive with a little poison and a little more finesse
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 14:29

Quote :
BUT should not be can openers

The fluff suggests otherwise. It even suggests a Succubus is able to dismantle an imperial knight on her own.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 15:35

Maybe allow for bonus attacks for the higher initiative, and further allow to trade hits for a higher strength/AP. Thus a Wych Initiative 6 with 2 base attacks +1 for 2 CCW's +1 Charging attacking a Marine gets 6 attacks, 3 will likely hit, and then those 3 can be changed to a higher strength, or reduce the pponents SV or a combination. Maybe +1 S or -1 SV per attack spent to boost a previous attack.

The same Wych against some Ork Boyz would get 8 attacks.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 15:42

No need for any crazy rules that will never find their way into the game anyway.

I'd just keep it simple and give them a rending like effect, probably something that doesn't work against vehicles. In this way, the unit would be basically identical to their WFB Dark Elf counterpart and they are good units because of that auto-hit on 6 too.

Combat Drugs should be revised too and be made similarly effective to the "latests experiments" table from Grotesquerie.

With those things, I think we'd already have a very reasonable unit. If there is anything more I could wish for it is a "Bail out" USR that lets them make an initivative test when they are inside an open topped transport that gets shot down to avoid damange.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 16:26

@The Strange Dark One wrote:


Combat Drugs should be revised too and be made similarly effective to the "latests experiments" table from Grotesquerie.


Personaly i like new CD. Stat-up is always better, than whoknowswhatitdoes.
And i hoping GW wont nerf them more as i describe upper. I think their stat line and rules are simple and quiet good. Thei only need buff on weeapons (maybe some new one?) and maybe CD. But if we improve CD they surely will be more like Grotesquerie rules, not just stat-up.

Like
Splintermind - reroll Ld tests
Serpentin - gives master crafted to one of the weapons
Painbringer - improve PfP table similar to Haemi special rule
Grave lotus - Shred
Hypex - move 12 inches (or maybe charge and run +3 like banshee)
Adrenalight - Rage or rampage

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 17:24

Oh, I think combat drugs need changed too. They just don't ONLY effect wyches. I think combat drugs should be changed to a d3 roll for: +1S, +1T, or +1 Attack. That's it. Simple, and makes the roll a good thing, no matter what.

Combat drugs that increase your leadership are even more stupid today than they were the day they were originally written(when we actually had some drug roll manipulation).

Currently, I don't depend on combat drugs at all. I forget about them half the time, when I used to rock Sliscus and multiple venoms filled with wyches. Got like 80 wyches on my shelf. Taking away Sliscus was a huge hit to combat drugs by itself.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 18:16

Theres been apocaliptic fomation called Dark Olympiad, that gives double roll on CD table (using both results) and applying CD on beasts as well.
Maybe we will see something like this in new dex.

Oh, as i post early - there`s nothing bad in stat-up after all. +1 to Ld or even In could be very useful sometimes. Its far more better, that previous table.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 20:32

If the Splintermind drug just were roll two times like the corsair drug I would be happy (with the drugs). Adding poison and rendering would make them sooo much better. Like the Splintermind podcast talked about the old school wych weapons would also help them a lot (-1 attack and/or to hit). If space marines and orks were hitting them on 5+ with less attacks and was hit first with poison 4+ attacks with rendering wyches would be super nice
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 22:53

I like my rules to match the fluff, and the closest thing to a grav weapon Dark Eldar have is the Implosion Missile.

To make Wyches better, I would first give them two new general special rules:
1. An equivalent of the Bladestorm rule (aka. Pseudo-Rending; to-wound rolls of 6 wound automatically and count as AP2) in close combat.
2. Jink. It would be so simple, yet so effective!
It would make them harder-hitting, more survivable, and actually match how the fluff describes their fighting style: Dodging away from enemy attacks and aiming for weak spots is what Wyches are supposed to do!


As for the Wych weapons:

Hydra Gauntlets
S- AP4 Shred, Special Weapon

Razor Flail*
S- AP4
Whirling Defense: The user may re-roll save rolls of 1 in the fight sub-phase.
Ritual Pair: A model with two weapons with this rule may re-roll to-hit rolls of 1.

Shard Net*
S- AP- Special Weapon
Ritual Pair: A model with two weapons with this rule may re-roll to-hit rolls of 1.
Entangle: Enemy models in base contact reduce their base Attacks by 1, to a minimum of 1.

Impaler*
S- AP4 Special Weapon
Ritual Pair: A model with two weapons with this rule may re-roll to-hit rolls of 1.
Impale: To-hit rolls of 6 have the Instant Death special rule.

Razor Snare (almost funny how this weapon is found in multiple kits, but has no rules anymore)
S+1 AP4 Unwieldy
Meteor Hammer: The user gets a single Hammer Of Wrath attack with a +1 Strength bonus and the Concussive special rule. This is cumulative with different Strength boni, but does not affect any other Hammer Of Wrath attacks they might have.

Hekata Glaive (only for Hekatrizes, Bloodbrides and Syrens)
S+1 AP4 Two-handed
Whirling Defense: The user may re-roll save rolls of 1 in the fight sub-phase.

Shredder Pistol (only for Hekatrizes, Syrens and Succubi)
Range 6'' S6 AP- Pistol, Explosive (3''), Pinning


* Wyches may only take a Shard Net + Impaler or a pair of Razor Flails, but Hekatrizes, Syrens and Succubi can very well take a Razor Flail + Shard Net or Impaler and still get the Ritual Pair bonus, since they have the experience necessary to combine these weapons in unconventional ways.


Last edited by Rokuro on Mon Dec 28 2015, 00:47; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 22:58

I've said it before, but I think everything in the DE army should have rending (with the possible exception of some Coven stuff). To represent them finding gaps in the enemy armour, rather than trying to just take out enemies with (pitiful) strength alone.

You could then enhance this for specific units where appropriate - like having Wyches rend on a 5+ in melee.

Alternatively, it could be based on initiative - units gain rending if they have I5+. For each point of initiative over 5, the number required to rend is reduced by 1. So, I6 units (wyches, bloodbrides, hellions etc.) would rend on 5s, I7 units (Archon, Drazhar) would rend on 4s and I8 units (just the succubus) would rend on 3s.

With regard to damaging vehicles, I definitely think we should be able to in melee. Hence, if wyches or other units get rending, it should be proper rending (not limited to infantry/MCs). Vehicles obviously have weak spots in their armour - this is what always hitting rear armour in melee is supposed to represent - so I don't see why we shouldn't be able to have a chance at finding said weak spots.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Sun Dec 27 2015, 23:26

@The Shredder wrote:
With regard to damaging vehicles, I definitely think we should be able to in melee. Hence, if wyches or other units get rending, it should be proper rending (not limited to infantry/MCs). Vehicles obviously have weak spots in their armour - this is what always hitting rear armour in melee is supposed to represent - so I don't see why we shouldn't be able to have a chance at finding said weak spots.

You have to admit though, the image of a Wych making a building crumble just by sticking it with her knife is pretty ridiculous.
(Base Strength 3, plus D6 penetration, plus D3 from Rending can make for a Strength 10 hit, and that's without Furious Charge or Grave Lotus)
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Dec 28 2015, 00:58

@Rokuro wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
...

You have to admit though, the image of a Wych making a building crumble just by sticking it with her knife is pretty ridiculous.
(Base Strength 3, plus D6 penetration, plus D3 from Rending can make for a Strength 10 hit, and that's without Furious Charge or Grave Lotus)

This is exactly what I think too.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Dec 28 2015, 01:30

That's not a strength 10 hit. A strength 10 hit can score 16 on penetration without modifiers, and never scores less than 11.

A PENETRATION TOTAL of 10 represents the weakest possible hit that can even possibly dent a building or vehicle. I'd say that's possible with a knife or baseball bat. Don't agree? You've obviously never had an italian girlfriend.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Dec 28 2015, 02:00

If I wasn't hiding in the bathroom at work I would have lol'd at that.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Dec 28 2015, 03:45

A wych charging with three s3 rending attacks is functionally the same as a single krak grenade, it has an OK chance vs av10 and can't scratch av13. So gameplay/balance wise this is like giving DE troop choice krak grenades on the charge. When not charging it's something worse.

As for imagery, a wych slicing through a door/hatch or window with skillful bladework fits their fluff. Remember it's just AV10-12 where it's conceivable that someone could pry open a hatch, slice a dreadnought cable, or shove a pistol through a vision slit, they aren't penetrating landraider hulls.

There's weirder 'fluff issues' in 40k already, like Eldar poison shards destroying wraithknights and tau battlesuits, but having zero chance of harming a very-exposed ork on a ramshakle trike :p

So from a gameplay and fluff perspective I have no objections to rending wyches.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea Fixing Wyches   Mon Dec 28 2015, 06:31

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
That's not a strength 10 hit. A strength 10 hit can score 16 on penetration without modifiers, and never scores less than 11.

A PENETRATION TOTAL of 10 represents the weakest possible hit that can even possibly dent a building or vehicle. I'd say that's possible with a knife or baseball bat. Don't agree? You've obviously never had an italian girlfriend.

Yeah, I should have worded that better. But the point is: A Wych landing a successful rending hit would penetrate between 10 and 14 (with Furious Charge and Grave Lotus: 3 +1 +1 +6 +D3). And that's not only a very small chance to glance a Land Raider, but also enough to get a "Total Collapse" result on AV13 buildings.
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