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 Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?

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Are non-superheavy vehicles less frequent in your meta?
Yes, there seem to be fewer vehicles these days
4%
 4% [ 1 ]
There are about the same as there were before
71%
 71% [ 17 ]
No, if anything there are more vehicles now
25%
 25% [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 24
 

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 18:15

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@killedbydeath wrote:
Can see I was a little unclear. I think if they don't hit the ground (or hide behind cover). The sniper has a perfect shoot at them and the barrage will blow them to bits. But the is not penalty to just stand there like a "lamb to slaughter" in the open. The unit should take a auto hit from the barrage or the sniper should get a bonus to hit them.

Why? I mean, surely it's no different to shooting at a unit in the open with any other weapon.

Probably because pinning makes no sense. You go to ground to avoid beeing hit or suffer from supression fire while it has no penalty to not go to ground.
Go to ground is basically what you see in action movies. One of the good guys unleashes a hailstorm of bullets (without much aiming) just to make sure the bad guys keep their heads down while his partner flanks them.
Now we apply "fearless" to the bad guys.
One of the good guys unleashes a hailstorm of bullets (without much aiming) just to make sure the bad guys keep their heads down while his partner flanks them but the do not give a crap about the random bullets flying at them. They still stand tall without even trying to reach for cover and just ignore the bullets. Nobody gets hit because they... ignore the bullets.

You mean like that thing that happens all the time in movies? Pulp Fiction, Last Samurai, the Stargate series, that sort of thing? The 'protagonist snaps and wades through hail of suppression fire' scene alone has enough iterations to fill a library. From a story perspective, Fearless units ignoring Pinning just seems to make sense.

Maybe I can't seem to parse from the posts what the problem is. I know people get excited and maybe forget a spell check or a grammar convention, but I just can't seem to discern the current problem. Are people irked now that Go to Ground doesn't give a big enough bennie? Or that it doesn't have enough of a penalty? I'm a little lost.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 18:39

Quote :
Are people irked now that Go to Ground doesn't give a big enough bennie? Or that it doesn't have enough of a penalty? I'm a little lost.

The notion was rather that some weapons (with the pinning rule) do so (in the fluff!) by creating an apocalypse of sharpnel/bullets/flame/... that force you into cover to not get obliterated. This is what a failed Ld check on pinning represents. The guys immedeatly seek cover (go to ground) to not get destroyed.
If you manage to pass your Ld (or are fearless) your troops are basically like "Well the world explodes there are 8 heavy machineguns shooting at us but we wont get hit anyways."

It is rather about there is nothing happening to the troops if the DON'T go to ground although the fluff suggests otherwise.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 21:19

Did you know that the majority of the bullets in war is fired for suppression not for killing?


And with your idea about cover or getting obliterated, a normal gun can do that too.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 21:38

@CptMetal wrote:
Did you know that the majority of the bullets in war is fired for suppression not for killing?

So I challenge you to step into the "suppression" fire and not taking cover and see how it turns out.

Quote :
And with your idea about cover or getting obliterated, a normal gun can do that too.

And here we are again. So do you look for cover (pinned, gone to ground) or do you just let the gun shoot you in the open (fearless)?
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 22:14

I wanted to say that every gun is pining basically. No difference between the weapons. So I target something and if it doesn't have cover, take it off the board.

But you know the main reason? Because it's a frak game.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 22:54

@killedbydeath wrote:
This is off topic but with the logic that it is the same getting shoot by snipers or barrage (normally mass artillery fire) as getting shoot at by "norma" shooting why have the rule at all?

I hate to break it to you, but if you're looking for a logical ruleset, you're in the wrong game. Razz
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 23:08

Can we move this back onto the subject of the thread please - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Thu Dec 24 2015, 15:52

Well back onto the topic, I don't think they're on the decline. If they made them weaker though they would be. (For example if they gave everything 1 less hullpoint or if they made anti-tank weapons even anti-tankier)
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Thu Dec 24 2015, 15:59

@Lord_Alino wrote:
Well back onto the topic, I don't think they're on the decline. If they made them weaker though they would be. (For example if they gave everything 1 less hullpoint or if they made anti-tank weapons even anti-tankier)

Well, I'd certainly I'd like to see our anti-tank weapons get anti-tankier. Wink


In terms of vehicles, I kinda wish we were less reliant on them. It would be nice to have the option to just field an army of Jetbikes/Jump Infantry/Skyboards/Beasts.
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Thu Dec 24 2015, 16:03

That would be nice. We would need the Baron back for that. Make Hellions troops and give them something to make them worthwhile...

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Thu Dec 24 2015, 16:04

@CptMetal wrote:
That would be nice. We would need the Baron back for that. Make Hellions troops and give them something to make them worthwhile...

Hellions should just be troops anyway.

We also need stuff like bikes/wings/skyboards for our HQs.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Thu Dec 24 2015, 18:26

Dark light as a staple is simply insufficient. We need cheap, plentiful haywire grenades back. Tau and Corsairs now have them, I guess that's where ours went?..

@The Shredder wrote:

Hellions should just be troops anyway.

We also need stuff like bikes/wings/skyboards for our HQs.

Hellions totally should be troops, and jet-bikes (though not neccesarily eldar jet-bikes) in my opinion. They'd give us some character, simply by not being guardian/cloud dancer jet-bikes and focusing on melee. Give them 4+ armor and allow them to buy haywire grenades and we have a playable codex pretty much instantly.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Thu Dec 24 2015, 19:03

@stilgar27 wrote:
Hellions totally should be troops, and jet-bikes (though not neccesarily eldar jet-bikes) in my opinion.  They'd give us some character, simply by not being guardian/cloud dancer jet-bikes and focusing on melee.  Give them 4+ armor and allow them to buy haywire grenades and we have a playable codex pretty much instantly.

Instead of Jetbikes, how about making them out version of Swooping Hawks?

So, 18" movement and, as you say, haywire grenades.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Thu Dec 24 2015, 20:38

To veer back towards the topic - I'm lucky enough not to face too many super heavies, but I have also not noticed a reduction of vehicles on the table tops.  If anything I've probably seen more, between the "freebies" marines can get and the more... friendly players who simply take full vehicle squadrons or special detachments for bonuses.  I've also seen a ton of land speeders lately, like a ton.

Despite not seeing super heavies, I have run in to a few rather annoying gargantuan creature over the past year.

As for the hellion wish-listing, the swooping hawks mobility would be fine but I think jink is sort of ideal here.  I also don't know how you'd make them that fast without the army wide battle focus.

As far as balance goes, windriders are 17 points and would still have better mobility, durability, and firepower (no melee weapon or grenades though).
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HokutoAndy
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Sat Dec 26 2015, 04:24

Part of the problem of non-supers is the penetration chart. The best a ravager or any gun tank can hope for is getting a "can only snapfire" result, which severely reduces their usefulness.

If "can only snapfire" was reduced to "-1 to BS" you'd get more reliable firepower. Immobilization is also death for close combat vehicles like dreads. Perhaps a damage chart like...

1-3: shaken, -1 to BS
4-5: stunned, -1 to BS, WS, move reduced by 1/2
6: Weapon/mobility destroyed, choose to destroy a weapon or immobilize vehicle
7: explode

a more radical game changing change would be to just give everything a toughness/wounds/save stat...
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HokutoAndy
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Sat Dec 26 2015, 04:24

Part of the problem of non-supers is the penetration chart. The best a ravager or any gun tank can hope for is getting a "can only snapfire" result, which severely reduces their usefulness.

If "can only snapfire" was reduced to "-1 to BS" you'd get more reliable firepower. Immobilization is also death for close combat vehicles like dreads. A more forgiving chart would be...

1-3: shaken, -1 to BS
4-5: stunned, -1 to BS, WS, movement reduced by 1/2
6: Weapon/mobility destroyed, choose to destroy a weapon or immobilize vehicle
7: explode

But that's still not as good as a monstrous creature's "keep on truckin' until you're at w0"

a more radical game changing change would be to just give everything a toughness/wounds/save stat...
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Sat Dec 26 2015, 07:01

I actually like the vehicle rules. Shaken gives me the possibility to survive enemy fire. I actually hate it that monstrous creatures are in game so often now. They get injured and their effectiveness is reduced by..... nothing?
Come on...!

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Sat Dec 26 2015, 10:09

Interesting. I like MCs more as every weapon in my army can wound it while I need lances even to pop a rhino.
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Sat Dec 26 2015, 14:56

I like that part too. I just hate that injuries don't affect them at all...

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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Sun Dec 27 2015, 10:07

The core problem is that a vehicle need more cover to get a save, have the special damage chart, can get immobilized, half of the time shoots snapshots and has a low "wound count" hull points 3 standard. Monsters have non of those and many can have wings... The point cost of a vehicle is just to high in the game atm.
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Sun Dec 27 2015, 10:10

Well.. If a Raider or a Venom were cheaper, I would spam those even more.

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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Sun Dec 27 2015, 10:14

@CptMetal wrote:
I actually like the vehicle rules. Shaken gives me the possibility to survive enemy fire. I actually hate it that monstrous creatures are in game so often now. They get injured and their effectiveness is reduced by..... nothing?
Come on...!

Agreed.

It wasn't so bad when the only MCs in the game were stuff like carnifexes (6" move, T6, 3+ save), but now that we've got stuff like Riptides, Dreadknights, Wraithknights and such it is a bit ridiculous.

So is the arbitrary limitation on 'weapon destroyed'. So, a meltagun can blow up a land raider in 1 hit, but can't even blow the arm of an imperial knight? That really exposed arm with a ton of unarmoured wired and pipes? Neutral
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killedbydeath
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Sun Dec 27 2015, 20:52

There is a reason codex knight titans is a top codex. Vehicles (walkers) with non of the weaknesses and giving them close to all the same strengths of MC's (more hull points (wounds), speed (wing) and additional stomps to rule CC.

Facing things like a ork stomper or a knight just make a game so much harder.
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Sun Dec 27 2015, 20:58

I wish I witches would still have Haywire Grenades..

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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 29 2015, 21:54

So... if vehicles are being outcompeted by super heavies and monstrous creatures, but the meta isn't yet reflecting this, is there a way for us to exploit this?
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