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 Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?

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Are non-superheavy vehicles less frequent in your meta?
Yes, there seem to be fewer vehicles these days
4%
 4% [ 1 ]
There are about the same as there were before
71%
 71% [ 17 ]
No, if anything there are more vehicles now
25%
 25% [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 24
 

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Mon Dec 21 2015, 19:49

It seems to me that in 7th edition, rules in the main book and the codicies have tended to make non-superheavy vehicles less useful.

Superheavies outcompete lesser vehicles by ignoring restrictions on firing while moving and not suffering from most results on the damage table. Monstrous creatures and Gargantuan creatures don't degrade from damage suffered at all, are more flexible, not over-subject to melta and basically immune to haywire. Units of bikers are faster, often tougher than comparable vehicles by the time armour saves are taken into account, cheaper, and generally have versatile options for potent weaponry plus don't need a transport.

But I'm not sure if this is reflected in the game as it is played at a local level. Hence the question - in your meta, has the number of non-superheavy vehicles that you have tended to see gone up since 7ed, stayed about the same, or declined, relative to the points being played?
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Lord_Alino
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Mon Dec 21 2015, 21:47

I seem to see the same amount of vehicles these days.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Mon Dec 21 2015, 23:15

People who field competitive armies around here protect their infantry with either vehicles, huge numbers, or 2+ armor. I haven't noticed any shift in the percentages between them from when I started to now.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 22 2015, 02:29

Three words:
Gladius Strike Force

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 22 2015, 06:32

I think that many vehicles have been made weaker. Not necessarily by their own rules,but more by the drastic increase in the number of weapons like Haywire and Grav - which ignore AV entirely (so, stuff like Leman Russ and Land Raiders now seem very vulnerable for their points). That said, with the changes to the damage table and the drastic increase in the number of MCs, many vehicles with blast/large blast weapons have become a lot less useful. And, of course, some were just nerfed for no reason (Ravager, sigh).

Regardless, there are 3 counter-points to the above:

1) In many cases, infantry is in an even worse position. Many are touting weapons that are utterly worthless in the current game (lasguns spring to mind), whilst also having even worse survivability and less mobility. At the very least, most infantry still needs transports, and even aside from that most vehicles still give better value than their infantry equivalents. Or, in fact, they might not even have infantry equivalents.

2) With the various point reductions, many armies can now field more vehicles, without sacrificing anything anything from their armies.

3) There are many Formations and Detachments that can drastically alter the value of vehicles. Most notably, the (double) Gladius Strike Force, as CptMetal rightly said.

Actually, the current situation reminds me a lot of 5th. Which is somewhat ironic, given that HPs were supposed to fix that. Anyway, one of the major complaints in 5th was that expensive tanks were too easy to destroy, whilst cheap transports were too survivable for their cost.

One last thing though - it's quite possible that some individual armies are tending to field fewer vehicles than before, even if the overall number hasn't changed or is increasing (because other armies are fielding a lot more).
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 22 2015, 06:39

Necrons are probably a good example of fielding fewer vehicles. I used to see several Night Scythes and 3 Annihilation Barges in pretty much every list. Now it's just Wraiths and Warriors as far as the eye can see, with the occasional Ghost Ark just to make the Warriors even more annoying.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 22 2015, 06:46

Count Adhemar wrote:
Necrons are probably a good example of fielding fewer vehicles. I used to see several Night Scythes and 3 Annihilation Barges in pretty much every list. Now it's just Wraiths and Warriors as far as the eye can see, with the occasional Ghost Ark just to make the Warriors even more annoying.

My Necrons are about the same, though I don't use Ghost Arcs. The only vehicles I've used are a single CCB and a single Triarch Stalker (which was converted out of the Annihilation Barge I stopped using).

- Some Eldar lists might be using fewer vehicles (with Scatterbikes replacing troop transports and possibly War Walkers as well).

- I believe some GK lists also use fewer vehicles - given the move from MEQ to terminators, and the ability to deep strike from turn 1.

- There are also lists like Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus, which have very few vehicles in their books (and no transports).
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Lord_Alino
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 22 2015, 09:05

I had the honor of putting a Triarch stalker together and painting it a few years back. I'd run 3 if I played Necrons just because I love the model
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 22 2015, 09:09

Lord_Alino wrote:
I had the honor of putting a Triarch stalker together and painting it a few years back. I'd run 3 if I played Necrons just because I love the model

I'll admit mine looks a tad different:

Spoiler:
 
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Lord_Alino
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 22 2015, 10:15

It's a coveneque Triarch Stalker lol
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 22 2015, 10:17

Lord_Alino wrote:
It's a coveneque Triarch Stalker lol

If it wasn't so big, I'd use it as a pain engine too. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 22 2015, 18:47

The Shredder wrote:
Lord_Alino wrote:
It's a coveneque Triarch Stalker lol

If it wasn't so big, I'd use it as a pain engine too. Razz

It looks bigger than a Stalker.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 22 2015, 19:37

I have to admit that I had Necrons in mind while thinking about this; that and the new Tau seemed to me (caveat: I have no exposure to Tau) to emphasize the suits and creatures ahead of the vehicles.

Craftworld Eldar, its Wraithknight, and its scatbikes which can wreak havoc with lighter vehicles also came to mind.

But perhaps it is, as The Shredder mentioned, a more army dependent issue. Space Marines, with their Gladius, their Drop Pods, no monstrous creatures and FW only superheavies will likely be the poster child of vehicles for some time to come. And I suppose, where Space Marines go, the game goes...
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Lord_Alino
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Tue Dec 22 2015, 22:04

I like the idea of running a space marine jetbike army

-commence lolling-
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killedbydeath
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 03:04

I never got the vehicle damage chart and the weird move and shoot rules. A running eldar, fast going bikers, jumppacks guys and other units can move 12" and move in the assault phase all firing with full BS. A huge tank with all its tech and protection can't move and shoot with all weapons with full BS and getting shoot when you are sitting in the tank effects you much more than when standing in the open on foot... No one would runs for cover or hits the ground when bullets or missiles starts rain down on them unless given the orders to do so.
But I have the same problem with sniper and barrages and the pinning test and even more with fearless units. You take a pinning test or go to ground (seeking cover). Okay but why is the guys not seeking cover not getting shoot or hit by the fragment? Not fearing or not seeking cover don't make you immune to incoming fire! That is just weird rule.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 03:29

But the guy not seeking cover can get hit. I don't know what you are talking about.

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killedbydeath
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 04:14

Can see I was a little unclear. I think if they don't hit the ground (or hide behind cover). The sniper has a perfect shoot at them and the barrage will blow them to bits. But the is not penalty to just stand there like a "lamb to slaughter" in the open. The unit should take a auto hit from the barrage or the sniper should get a bonus to hit them.
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 04:52

killedbydeath wrote:
But I have the same problem with sniper and barrages and the pinning test and even more with fearless units. You take a pinning test or go to ground (seeking cover). Okay but why is the guys not seeking cover not getting shoot or hit by the fragment? Not fearing or not seeking cover don't make you immune to incoming fire! That is just weird rule.

I think you may be reading a little too far into this game. I mean, I agree with you in a way but this seems a little too descriptive.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 08:00

So like sniper or barrage weapons instant killing fearless units? Because they stand still all the time,

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 08:04

killedbydeath wrote:
Can see I was a little unclear. I think if they don't hit the ground (or hide behind cover). The sniper has a perfect shoot at them and the barrage will blow them to bits. But the is not penalty to just stand there like a "lamb to slaughter" in the open. The unit should take a auto hit from the barrage or the sniper should get a bonus to hit them.

Why? I mean, surely it's no different to shooting at a unit in the open with any other weapon.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 10:14

The Shredder wrote:
killedbydeath wrote:
Can see I was a little unclear. I think if they don't hit the ground (or hide behind cover). The sniper has a perfect shoot at them and the barrage will blow them to bits. But the is not penalty to just stand there like a "lamb to slaughter" in the open. The unit should take a auto hit from the barrage or the sniper should get a bonus to hit them.

Why? I mean, surely it's no different to shooting at a unit in the open with any other weapon.

Probably because pinning makes no sense. You go to ground to avoid beeing hit or suffer from supression fire while it has no penalty to not go to ground.
Go to ground is basically what you see in action movies. One of the good guys unleashes a hailstorm of bullets (without much aiming) just to make sure the bad guys keep their heads down while his partner flanks them.
Now we apply "fearless" to the bad guys.
One of the good guys unleashes a hailstorm of bullets (without much aiming) just to make sure the bad guys keep their heads down while his partner flanks them but the do not give a crap about the random bullets flying at them. They still stand tall without even trying to reach for cover and just ignore the bullets. Nobody gets hit because they... ignore the bullets.
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 10:43

No penalty for not going to ground? Sure, no improvement in cover save.

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killedbydeath
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 11:13

This is off topic but with the logic that it is the same getting shoot by snipers or barrage (normally mass artillery fire) as getting shoot at by "norma" shooting why have the rule at all? Fearless units do not stand still but it was just weird you can ignore the rule...

And yes Lord alino I agree with you it is just a game Smile no reason to read too much in to it. Still sucks vehicle are so bad
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 12:33

CptMetal wrote:
No penalty for not going to ground? Sure, no improvement in cover save.

So I fo not get +1 to cover, can only fire snapshots, cant overwatch and have to use my 3+ armor save? Poor me. Especially if the pinning weapon has the ignore cover rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Are non-superheavy vehicles on the decline?   Wed Dec 23 2015, 12:39

That's the problem with the rules that you only get to choose cover or Armour Save. If you shot with Blaster born you see what I meant.

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