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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Fri Jan 01 2016, 23:03

When they have the jet pack their type changes meaning they move 12 as per the scout rule.

It's not to throw one grenade. The throw is supplemental. The fusion gun is the main threat turn 1 and then charging in with 5 hwg on a 12 inch moving platform wrecking a tank a turn (like haywyches) is the remaining threat.

Or if there are no tanks to hunt. Objective camp with stealth and snipers.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Fri Jan 01 2016, 23:05

@The Red King wrote:
When they have the jet pack their type changes meaning they move 12 as per the scout rule.

They move 12" for their Scout move, but after that they're moving 6" per turn (unless they're running and thus giving up their ability to Shoot, Reckless Abandon and/or Assault).

@The Red King wrote:

It's not to throw one grenade.  The throw is supplemental. The fusion gun is the main threat turn 1 and then charging in with 5 hwg on a 12 inch moving platform wrecking a tank a turn (like haywyches) is the remaining threat.

Again, they can't move more than 6" per turn and still act.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Fri Jan 01 2016, 23:13

I was thinking of jump packs. My bad.

But still. Reliably delivered to the backfield a 6 inch move never really hampered wyches (once delivered) and if they need to book it. They have 6 inch movement plus a fleet run plus 2d6 jump. For an average of 17 inches. Though minus the shooting. This is just an example for their mobility. Not factoring reckless abandon.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 01:29

Wyches were also much cheaper base and a good throw away unit due to being so cheap.

I do like the corsair rangers and plan on taking a unit. But will probably keep them cheap. Maybe give them a special weapon. I think their main roll is best for being not overly threatening and a little tougher to remove via stealth.
This makes them a solid scoring units with good movement options due move through cover and infiltrate/scout.

I don't think spending 22+ points per model is a good way to go at all

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 04:18

So about those ghost walkers...

Independent characters specifically can't infiltrate with an infiltrating unit unless they have that rule.  

Barons aren't independent characters.  What happens when they join ghost walkers?  He can outflank or scout as that is conferred by the unit - but can he infiltrate?

I assume it's no of course but I don't see it stipulated anywhere.

Edit: Answered my own question - I Never noticed that "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule" part on infiltrate - just the independent character exclusion before it.  The baron should be ok infiltrating.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 08:56

He's not an independent.... doh lol. Well as far as I can see that's fully legal. I'll look into whether I can actually find any benefit there lol

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 12:41

A Baron can 100% Infiltrate, so long as at least one model in his unit can.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 14:25

So far, I'm happy with our troop and fast attack slots, but I still feel like the HQ's are taxes and I can't find anything I really like in elites.

I've looked at malevolents and if I could pop them in a transport I'd try them. By the time I give them jet packs though they're already 20 points a model and don't have any good weapons in the unit yet. At that point, I'd rather take incubi who are always strength 4 instead of just on the charge and get ap2 or take grotesque for their durability.

Maybe I'll get some war walkers because I can see those being handy, but they seem to fill pretty similar roles to what I'll already be doing with my bikes and skimmers.

For heavy, I like the sound of warp hunters but I feel like they'll be shut down too often. Forcing them to jink or getting them with a crew shaken or crew stunned will make them useless and that's a lot of points to spend on one model. Balestrikes with lances are the only ones I'm really seeing potential in.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 15:04

@lessthanjeff wrote:
So far, I'm happy with our troop and fast attack slots, but I still feel like the HQ's are taxes and I can't find anything I really like in elites.

I have to partially disagree.

I mean, having played DE for so long, I feel I'm well aquainted in what a 'Tax HQ' looks like. Wink

Anyway, I still can't bring myself to think of the Prince is a tax. Granted, he's more focussed on melee than the other units in the army. However, with a Prince Path and level in divination, he can make for a tolerable support character. And, with a Brace of Pistols (not to mention both Plasma and Defensive grenades) he can at least contribute something in shooting.

The one thing I will say is that a lot of the Prince Paths feel a bit overcosted. 10pts to give a 2-wound (at best), T3 character FNP seems really pricey. Same goes for Master Crafting a weapon for 10pts (although, what annoys me more is that the Prince himself doesn't get to master craft one of his weapons Evil or Very Mad).

Honestly, the Prince isn't amazing or anything, but I just can't bring myself to call him a tax.

Anyway, The Void Dreamer just comes across to me as a Farseer -1000. The most irritating thing is that he has to take one level in Aethermancy. I don't know if I'd consider them a tax, per se, but certainly one of the worst psykers.

Barons... yeah, these are a tax. They actually seem a lot like Eldar Exarchs... except more expensive... and without all the useful abilities and wargear.  

@lessthanjeff wrote:

I've looked at malevolents and if I could pop them in a transport I'd try them.  By the time I give them jet packs though they're already 20 points a model and don't have any good weapons in the unit yet.  At that point, I'd rather take incubi who are always strength 4 instead of just on the charge and get ap2 or take grotesque for their durability.

I have a few points to make in defence of Malevolents:

- They're 20pts per model, but that's instead of taking a transport (whereas those Incubi are paying another 55pts to get where they need to go). If you add that to the Incubi, then you're looking at 31pts per model for a squad of 5. Also, I like units that don't need transports - as it means they're not stranded if their transport gets shot down, but that's personal preference.

- Unlike Incubi, they start with FNP 5+ (as opposed to needing to wait until turn 3), and 2 wounds apiece. Granted, it's probably a toss-up as to how useful 2 wounds and FNP are are on a T3 model, but they're probably still more durable than Incubi overall. I bring this up because I see them as more of an attrition unit - especially with an attached Prince/Baron with Void Sabre to increase their damage output.

- Malevolents have ranged weapons, Incubi don't. Every turn Incubi aren't in combat is a turn they're not contributing. In contrast, Malevolents can still fire 2 Splinter or Shuriken pistols each and then retreat elsewhere. Alternatively, they can shoot them and then charge, effectively giving every model 2 extra S4 attacks with pseudo-rending.

- Malevolents have grenades.

- Malevolents can take Melta Bombs (thus giving them some defence against Walkers and letting them hurt vehicles in melee).


Now, I'm not saying that Malevolents are better than Incubi, I'm just pointing out that they do have some significant advantages over them. To me, it seems more a matter of whether you want a specialist unit or a generalist one. Incubi are very specialised, but also pretty limited. Malevolents are more of a toolbox unit - they can bring stuff to handle units in cover, vehicles, infantry, MCs, bikes etc., but will never be as efficient as Incubi in melee - especially after the first turn. They may also find it harder to get into assault, though that's debatable and probably depends heavily on terrain, opponent etc.

@lessthanjeff wrote:
 Balestrikes with lances are the only ones I'm really seeing potential in.

Same. Shuriken Cannons on Balestrikes *might* be worth trying (they're quite cheap, at least), though their shorter range will probably cause issues.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 16:31

For anyone who has been updating daily as I have. Battlescribe finally has the new Corsair stuff up. I was keeping up with mine on paper and cheated myself 10 points lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 16:41

As far as HQ being a tax goes - It's going to depend entirely on how you choose to field them.

The prince's base cost is actually going to be flexible depending on which prince ability he gets.  For example giving him the free multi-phase key generator, which should be 25 points, basically reduces his cost to 50.

I'll admit that many of the prince abilities are too costly or specific to be efficient, but they do give you the option to give your army some character.  You want to gift your most favored servants with superior weapons? Yep you can do that.  The important thing to remember though is that beyond the prince, all the other upgrades are optional.

Now that I'm pretty sure that barons can infiltrate with ghost walkers, I'm giving multi phase key generators a second look.  These guys should be able to infiltrate, scout, and then pop open an indestructible portal on their first shooting phase and then pass right through it into ongoing reserves (which they can then outflank or deep strike from).

Then we start dropping (without scatter or mishap) blobs of reavers and jetbikes, that can turn around and go right back through the portal next turn only to pop up somewhere else Twisted Evil

And thanks red king - was about to check that myself.


Last edited by stilgar27 on Sat Jan 02 2016, 16:45; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 16:44

@The Red King wrote:
For anyone who has been updating daily as I have.  Battlescribe finally has the new Corsair stuff up. I was keeping up with mine on paper and cheated myself 10 points lol.

Finally! cheers

@stilgar27 wrote:

I'll admit that many of the prince abilities are too costly or specific to be efficient, but they do give you the option to give your army some character.

Oh, certainly - and they're one of the things I really like about the Prince.

EDIT: Unfortunately, the current Battlescribe file has a number of mistakes - such as Princes being ale to Master Craft weapons with Collector of Ancient Treasures, and Dark Lances costing 0pts on Balestrikes (which are mislabelled as Battlestrikes) instead of 15pts.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 18:26

Oh btw, I just came across this:

Quote :
One thing to note with Corsair Venoms - they are open-topped vehicles with Scout. Due how rules work, Scout only prevents charging with the unit has the rule. If only the transport has it then the unit is free to charge. Only other transport in the game that has Scout is Ork Battlewagons in Blitz Brigade formation and that formation even has a rule to prevent 1st turn charges.

So... knock yourselves out with your melee-corsairs
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 18:49

Oh, f--k yes...
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 21:15

For real.  Someone should send this the GW and maybe Frontline Gaming to see their ruling.

I thought that the rule was for units that make a scout move. Not just for models that have the scout rule that make a scout move?...  I would enjoy assaulting turn one very much. :-)

Also where is the reference from?

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 22:50

@colinsherlow wrote:
I thought that the rule was for units that make a scout move. Not just for models that have the scout rule that make a scout move?

Even if that was the case, the unit inside the transport still hasn't made a Scout move so it's all good.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 23:15

There's a debate on this on dakkadakka, if anyone is interested:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/675109.page
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 23:16

The fact that they specifically limit the Orks from not being able to do it indicates that the rules clearly allow it otherwise, in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 02 2016, 23:19

@Jimsolo wrote:
The fact that they specifically limit the Orks from not being able to do it indicates that the rules clearly allow it otherwise, in my opinion.

Agreed.

There's also the rule for firing out of transports which reads "Models firing out of a vehicle that moved at Combat Speed count as having moved that turn."

If models inside a vehicle counted as moving whenever the vehicle did, there'd be no need for that rule.

Hence, if a vehicle performs a Scout move, the passengers don't count as having performed a Scout move unless the rules specifically say so.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sun Jan 03 2016, 00:08

Honestly! The only argument anyone seems to have put forward against this is that the unit would have to stay where the transport was (before moving) or otherwise it has made a scout move. That 'argument' has so many holes in it that I don't even think I'd bother responding to it. It's 100% legal IMO.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sun Jan 03 2016, 04:57

Wow. Learn something new everyday.

So played a game today against one of the more tactical players at my LGS today with a splash of Corsair.

The Ghostwalkers unfortunately missed both the grenade and fusion gun and promptly got deleted by cover ignoring leman russ of some sort so I really can't speak to their effectiveness.

However I also ran what I thought would be far too costly a unit; seer council with Corsair Prince, Archon, and void dreamer. This was a 2000 point game. I really built that unit around ld shenanigans and my opponent was fielding literally nothing but tanks so I knew it would be rough. However they were stars. Having 3 shadow fields with a fortune Re roll meant I never really dreaded failing the save. They ate 6+ tanks worth of fire for 3+ turns and only the Prince ever lost his 2++ (so I just rotated him to the back of the unit and kept going).

Even with their LD abilities useless they made their points back running through 5+ tanks through sheer weight of Armour Bane attacks from the seers and rending on the corsairs.

I was very reluctant to use my corsair psykers for fear of perils but it didn't inhibit to a noticeable degree.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sun Jan 03 2016, 11:40

@The Red King wrote:

However I also ran what I thought would be far too costly a unit;  seer council with Corsair Prince, Archon, and void dreamer. This was a 2000 point game. I really built that unit around ld shenanigans and my opponent was fielding literally nothing but tanks so I knew it would be rough. However they were stars. Having 3 shadow fields with a fortune Re roll meant I never really dreaded failing the save.  They ate 6+ tanks worth of fire for 3+ turns and only the Prince ever lost his 2++ (so I just rotated him to the back of the unit and kept going).

Even with their LD abilities useless they made their points back running through 5+ tanks through sheer weight of Armour Bane attacks from the seers and rending on the corsairs.

Were they on foot the whole game, or did they start in a transport?

@The Red King wrote:
I was very reluctant to use my corsair psykers for fear of perils but it didn't inhibit to a noticeable degree.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this? Did you roll perils and it didn't do much, or did you use few dice to avoid perils, and still cast powers without issue?
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sun Jan 03 2016, 12:58

Yeah I see the Corsair Prince really excelling with a Seer Council. I hate to do it but its the only escort I can think of that will excel in a competitive environment.

In a more casual format Shining Spears, Autarch+Exarch+Farseer support, or perhaps Reaver Jetbikes. It sucks there was no combat variation on the Corsair bikes because I'd run them instead but hey it is what it is.

I think the Corsair Prince is a champ though, Void Sabre, Shadowfield, Mask of Secrets all day. I've been running a combat Autarch+Archon ever since 6th ed dropped and they've been champs for me, mulching infantry all day. I've never been disappointed and the Prince is basically a hybrid of both with all the best attributes and a little more.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sun Jan 03 2016, 13:01

I'm still interested in trying him with Malevolents.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sun Jan 03 2016, 13:48

@The Shredder wrote:
@The Red King wrote:

However I also ran what I thought would be far too costly a unit;  seer council with Corsair Prince, Archon, and void dreamer. This was a 2000 point game. I really built that unit around ld shenanigans and my opponent was fielding literally nothing but tanks so I knew it would be rough. However they were stars. Having 3 shadow fields with a fortune Re roll meant I never really dreaded failing the save.  They ate 6+ tanks worth of fire for 3+ turns and only the Prince ever lost his 2++ (so I just rotated him to the back of the unit and kept going).

Even with their LD abilities useless they made their points back running through 5+ tanks through sheer weight of Armour Bane attacks from the seers and rending on the corsairs.

Were they on foot the whole game, or did they start in a transport?

I assumed on bikes, when I first read it.
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