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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Sep 21 2016, 15:32

Wont work. You have to end your movement phase within 3", not the shooting phase after the jump.

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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Sep 21 2016, 15:35

Ah right, so to re-enter the WWP you have to end your movement phase within 3" of the portal?

Would decrease the utility of it, but with the mobility afforded to Corsairs I still think you should be able to get them in the right place.

Or is it not possible to battle-focus move back into the WWP for some reason? Haven't seen the exact wording.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Sep 21 2016, 16:36

Not possible. Movement PHASE. Not simply act of moving. Furthermore your entire idea is a non-starter. Non-corsair units and all vehicles can not come out of the WKG location. They may retreat back into the portal and into ongoing reserves, which makes an actual DE WWP viable for returning them to the field, but can't come out of one unless they are a corsair unit, which an attached IC (Prince or Void Dreamer) accomplishes.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Sep 21 2016, 16:43

Battle focus is in the shooting phase. The wwp states must end their movement PHASE all within 3" to get in.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Sep 21 2016, 16:46

Also WKG just gives the character who possesses it Deep strike, It makes no mention or suggestion of conferring DS to the unit like a WWP does. So you'd need to find the points for adding some DE to your list, which is going to turn your list into basically mine if you lookup Traveler of Forgotten paths in the Army List sub-forum.

Here.
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Sep 21 2016, 20:47

WKG?

I thought Battle Brothers were able to use Webway Portals to enter from reserves, and that the Corsair Multiphase Key Generator created a Webway Portal that your units could come through?

Are there differences between the Dark Eldar and Corsair webway portals, or has it been FAQ'd so that only units in the same detachment or CAD can use it? Or have I misread how webway portals work? Do they just let the HQ with it and the unit they're attached to deep strike through a portal, which can then be used to return to ongoing reserves?

I suppose it's a very tenuous argument that's probably not RAI, but do they specifically state that you must enter Ongoing Reserves during your movement phase?

I've got a pan-Eldar list somewhere with DE in it, but even that uses Multiphase Key Generator Corsairs to get some of the units close to the enemy without a delivery vehicle.

It was all based on this phrase from the Corsairs Tactics page on 1d4chan: "Furthermore any Character in the army can buy a multiphase key generator for 25 points, using it instead of shooting they can deploy a webway portal onto the table, creating an entry point for non-vehicle reserves"
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Sep 21 2016, 21:11

Ah, just managed to find the direct wording for it:

'Any friendly unit from the same detachment' may use the webway portal to enter from Reserves.

Plus, it does specifically state that units must immediately enter ongoing reserves during the movement phase.

Drat.

Back to the drawing board.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Sep 21 2016, 23:24

Yep.

Like I said though: It is doable. I think the list I included is the best way to do it with wraithguard, but am experimenting with a couple different approaches maximizing sslyth balls and firedragons instead.

ANY character can take it so it's a waste of points to take barons just for the Multiphase Key Generator, just upgrade squad members to felarchs on your troops.

The language in the 1d4chan is bad Corsairs do not have webway portals. Multiphase key generators create Webgate Markers. This seems like a pedantic point, but it needs to that needs to be made because WWP confers a lot of assumptions and connotations that Webgate markers do not deserve.

Furthermore: for UNIT definition rules, that is to say, rules that explicitly ask about a UNIT's faction and detachment information, for these rules an attached IC makes the conglomerate unit ALL the units detachments and Factions simultaneously per the rules for IC's. This means you could have up to 2 non-corsair units come out of the Webway Gate by attaching the Prince or Void Dreamer to that unit.

In my opinion the lag time seems to make it untenable though. meaning it allows you to bring out your Wraithguard or whatever when they come in from reserves, they get shot at for a full turn and retreat during the movement phase, and so miss out on another phase of shooting, return on the following turn from either that hole, a different one, or your table edge because they don't have deepstrike natively, and as you've seen being able to drop multiple tokens a turn gets expensive fast. It doesn't take much before an archon haemonculus or succubus with an actual Webway portal is more efficient.
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Thu Sep 22 2016, 15:18

Yeah I can see how it could work now, although I hadn't thought about 5pt Felarches with MKGs rather than 30pt Barons...

The entering the portal during the movement phase is what kills it as a viable tactic. If you just had to move into the portal, you could use it to strike at something and then avoid the retaliation afterwards. I can see that that's not possible now though, or at least thoroughly inefficient as you've just shown.

I did wonder if that was how IC rules worked. I was also wondering how Reaper of the Outer Dark's rules worked when attaching the Prince to an allied unit.

My next fancy idea (pan-Eldar footdar freakshow list) which I've called the Superfriends Shrieker Council, uses a ROoD Prince, a Farseer, a Void Dreamer, a WWP Armour of Misery Archon, a Mask of Secrets Shadowseer and a Death Jester attached to a 5-man squad of Harlequin ablative wounds (has to be Harlequins to keep it battleforged, otherwise I'd like Warlocks).

Idea would be to WWP deep-strike in close to something nasty that I'd want to delete, Shadowseer and Farseer psychic shriek it to death, throw a singing spear at something else alongside the Shrieker Cannon and then Veil of Tears to protect it from shooting, alongside 3 shadowfields to tank wounds.

Next turn I'd try to cast Path Ward so I can keep up mobility and get in range of something else.

Meanwhile, the rest of my army (2 lots of 4x Fusion Gun Reavers, two lots of Scatterbikes, a Raider gunboat and a Fire Prism) does the dirty work of actually winning the game.

Oh, and because the Harlies are a troops choice my freakshow gets objective secured Smile

Question is, if the Prince has to charge a unit that's within 8", does that mean my whole unit can shoot at something and then assault something else? Also, the Harlies, Death Jester and Shadowseer have Hit & Run. If that confers too then I could have quite the killing machine. Only thing that might make it even nastier is an Autarch with a Banshee Mask so I negate overwatch allowing me to assault previously unassaultable flamer units. Pretty difficult to get into an 1850pt army and keep it Battleforged though (unless you can have an allied Corsair force so the Prince isn't the warlord).

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Thu Sep 22 2016, 16:53

After a quick read of RotOD, it looks like the Prince would get Rampage, but not the rest of the unit. HOWEVER, if you shoot at Unit 1 that is over 8" away and Unit 2 is within 8", you must charge Unit 2 even though you are technically not able (didnt target in the shooting phase).

I can see this being both good and bad, depending on how you play.

Of course non Corsair units/characters are not able to be upgraded with Rage, nor does the rest of the unit benefit from Rampage.

To answer your question, yes H&R does transfer to the squad.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 02:44

Question regarding the Corsairs Void Dreamer's powers on the Aethermancy table. Say I have a Void Dreamer in a unit of Grotesques. I want to cast Path-ward. This power may only target units with the Eldar Corsairs faction. The Void Dreamer is an Eldar Corsair so he wants to cast it on himself, however, the unit he is in is Dark Eldar. What happens?

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 04:14

So this is precisely why we were fighting about what constitutes a units faction last week. There is a very even handed take in one of the new faq threads, but my summary would be: this entire discussion pivots around what constitutes an IC being treated as a member of the squad for "all rules purposes". Even the actual FAQ doesn't resolve this, only explicitly stating that a unit counts as all contained factions for hatred and preferred enemy. (Note: these are also the only USR's that care about faction for the record)

The problem is this question causes ripples through the rest of the rules, tho I'll contend that allowing it to work is less destructive to the current path. This is because allowing this would also necessitate that a unit with an attached IC from a different faction could not begin the game within their own transport because the macro unit is battlebrothers with it's transport. Which is not actually explicitly stated as a repercussion anywhere.

If we rule that the spell doesn't work that would mean that "battle brother" IC's can begin the game embarked on those transports because their faction designation switches to the unit-at-large's faction so long as they are attached.


TL;DR: Either the spell works, or the whole unit, including the void dreamer, can begin the game embarked on a raider. There is no in-between.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 04:29

My friend was a judge at NOVA and said that a unit consisting of multiple factions takes on multiple factions as it's unit's association, so ANY Corsair's unit in with the Grotesques would make it both Corsairs and Dark Eldar. That being said, the ITC FAQ explicitly mentions that you cannot cast Warp Tunnel on any unit not entirely consisting of Corsairs.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 04:33

Correct, and is not the spell in question and therefore completely irrelevant to the question at hand. Notable as an aside: ITC explicitly only bans jetbikes from reckless abandon on overwatch, which means that Jetpack dudes absolutely can do it.

I absolutely agree with your friends interpretation and am ruling as such if it does come up at the event I'm TO and judge for in mass next weekend, but there is absolutely no RAW justification for this stance. I believe that it is unquestionably RAI, but it's not explicitly written anywhere. If you find something let me know.

Also because I feel like you're picking on my focus on the Void Dreamer: realize that there are only 2 IC's in a corsairs army that can be attached to a battlebrother unit, and you can only have 1 of each. Nothing I am saying precludes putting the prince in a given unit instead and casting VD spells on it from elsewhere, presuming the IC's faction isn't squelched in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 04:55

Right, and I'm basically just working this meta out in my head using the VD because he's cheaper and easier to use. Having a Grotesque unit that always gets a 12" charge turns a great unit into an absolutely terrifying one and walking into a tournament with that in my pocket could be all the difference.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 05:11

True true. It's a very nice tool. So are: Sslyths (12.5ppw), Clawed Fiends (11.6ppw), Wracks (10ppw), and Hellions (13ppw). First 2 in any size, last 2 in max squad size only. If taking hellions the prince should be in there too probably with a fearless relic since the whole point is abusing the combination of HNR, 5++, furious charge, and the stupid footprint of 20 hellions. Wyches could make the list in larger than 10man squads but then your wasting one of the invulns so I don't usually care.

FYI Grotesques are also 11.6ppw (points per wound) which is a steal especially with regards to the grotesquerie.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 05:22

Grotesques with a Void Dreamer are so amazing it's obscene. Even without the psychic powers: the Shimmershield gives them a 5++. The Warp Blink or Warp Tunnel powers (although the latter doesn't work in ITC formats because reasons) enable even a large group of Grotesques to move across the board with frightening speed.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 17:51

How's this:

Grotesque unit from a Grotesquerie.
Level 3 VD with shadowfield rolling on Aethermancy.
Shadowseer level 2 from Masque detachment with Mask of Secrets, H&R, and rolling on Phantasmancy.
Shadowseer level 2 rolling on Telepathy
Shadowseer level 2 rolling on Sanctic.

Aethermancy and Phantasmancy are rolled for their primaris. Telepathy you want shriek to go with your leadership manipulation and hopefully invisibility. Sanctic, whatever works. Iron arm, gate, cleansing flame, sanctuary, they're pretty useful.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 18:23

Jesus, that's brutal. Expensive, but brutal. Just make sure the T3 psykers don't outnumber the Grots.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 18:26

I honestly don't see the value in covens grotesques there. If you are spending points on a fearless source that has hit and run main book grotesques are better because of access to furious charge.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 18:41

If you're going all-in how about a Corsair Prince (Venom Blade, Shadowfield, Armour of Misery, ML1) as an extra leadership debuff, more poisoned attacks and more warp charges.

Or just an Archon with Shadowfield, Armour of Misery and a Webway Portal so you can pop out right where your enemy doesn't want you to be.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 18:42

Would have to be a haemy or your dropping to t3 as soon as you lose a grotesque
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 19:19

Unless you buy more grots.

@amorrowlyday - FC is of limited utility to cross most of the time. Trading it for the Latest Experiments table and the Freakish Spectacle rule (plus IWND T3/4) seems like a good deal to me.


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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 19:20

True but then we're going to get deathball-y real fast.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Tue Dec 13 2016, 19:24

I was running 8-10 in my tournament lists this year and doing pretty good. The enhanced mobility of the Corsair Dreamer negates a lot of the deathstar slowness.
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