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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Jan 06 2016, 17:37

Potential corsair movement (Cloud Dancer Prince with Telekinesis in a unit of Cloud Dancers):
- Move 12" in movement phase
- Use a psychic shooting attack against a unit within 12", then move d6+6"
- Shoot a unit within 12" in the shooting phase, then move d6+6"
- Move 2d6" in the assault phase
- In the enemy turn, Overwatch a unit attempting to charge them and move d6+6"

That's a minimum move of 35" and an average move of 51.5" If you're under the effect of Path-Ward (or just roll well), you could move 60". Very Happy

Now why can't DE do that? Razz
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Jan 06 2016, 19:39

I like that idea a lot, but won't use it unless it is confirmed. That would be crazy amazing

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Jan 06 2016, 19:42

Bahaha - overwatch + reckless - I did not think of that. It makes 4 flamers in a 10 man squad even more hilarious. You'd almost literally never be able to charge bikes or jetpack units.

I've said it since the first pages leaked though, they're going to have to FAQ a lot of this stuff.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Jan 06 2016, 19:44

stilgar27 wrote:
I've said it since the first pages leaked though, they're going to have to FAQ a lot of this stuff.  

Do Forgeworld do FAQs?
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Jan 06 2016, 19:54

Ya they do erratas, faqs, and updates. More regularly than GW of course.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-JP/Downloads#warhammer40k
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Wed Jan 06 2016, 20:48

Usually their FAQ s are to support edition changes. I'm not holding my breath for rules support any time soon.
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HokutoAndy
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Thu Jan 07 2016, 09:24

Looking at the value of various units...

-A hornet with 2 pulse lasers costs as much as 2 cloud dancers with lances.

-3 cloud dancers with scatter lasers only cost a bit more than the above hornet and lancers.

-5 jetpack reavers with 2 fusion guns are ever so slightly more than the 3 cloud dancers

-1 basic venom carrying fusion reavers is the cost of 3 lance cloud dancers

-1 venom with underslung splinter cannon costs as much as 2 scatter cloud dancers

-Balestrikes with shurikannons and lances are a bit cheaper than dancer equivalents but less mobile/durable and take up a slot with tanks that do things cloud dancers can't like strength-D.

It seems like some good configurations for them would be...

Cloud Dancers: scatter lasers, use speed to hit side/rear armor
Hornet: lol pulse lasers for anything not av14
Balestrike: ???
Reavers: fusion (and haywire?) delivery via jetpacks or venoms

Not sure how the venom should be configured though. Splintercannon+scatter laser would be strong anti infantry and still dent light armor. Is it ever worth it to pay double the cost of a splintercannon for an underslung shurikannon instead? It makes the venom more effective against vehicles but then it's approaching hornet prices.

As for assault....

-Cloud Dancer Felarch /w venomblade is the cost of a lance cloud dancer. With Rage he delivers 5 ws5 attacks on the charge. Lacks assault grenades though.

Allied CWE, DE, or Harlequins seem a better deal for assault units overall.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Thu Jan 07 2016, 17:20

As a question, how do people feel about the Corsair detachment, as opposed to a CAD?

Obviously the Coterie bonuses are nice, but a CAD lets you skip the HQ taxes.

Any thoughts?

HokutoAndy wrote:
Looking at the value of various units...

-A hornet with 2 pulse lasers costs as much as 2 cloud dancers with lances.

Hornets win this one, I think.

HokutoAndy wrote:

-3 cloud dancers with scatter lasers only cost a bit more than the above hornet and lancers.

-5 jetpack reavers with 2 fusion guns are ever so slightly more than the 3 cloud dancers

-1 basic venom carrying fusion reavers is the cost of 3 lance cloud dancers

I think the different roles makes it hard to compare these.

HokutoAndy wrote:

Not sure how the venom should be configured though. Splintercannon+scatter laser would be strong anti infantry and still dent light armor. Is it ever worth it to pay double the cost of a splintercannon for an underslung shurikannon instead? It makes the venom more effective against vehicles but then it's approaching hornet prices.

Well, it depends how you look at it. After all, if you're already set on the Venom, 20pts for an extra Shuriken Cannon is still less than buying a Cloud Dancer or (Jet Pack) Balestrike with such.
The Hornet seems like a poor comparison, as it can't transport units (which, I'm presuming, is the reason you'd take a Venom). Perhaps a more appropriate juxtaposition would be the Falcon. Is it worth paying some more points for a Pulse Laser, AV12 front and sides, an extra hull point but no open-topped?

HokutoAndy wrote:

As for assault....

-Cloud Dancer Felarch /w venomblade is the cost of a lance cloud dancer. With Rage he delivers 5 ws5 attacks on the charge. Lacks assault grenades though.

With regard to Cloud Dancers, I see little reason to ever kit them for melee. Their shooting is always going to be better, and lets you take advantage of 36" range, Reckless Abandon (if anything gets close) and a Thrust Move. I can maybe see myself charging with the squad if there's an attached Prince and I just want to finish off a unit, but even then I'd be relying almost entirely on the Prince to do the work.

That said, I'm still interested in Jet Pack Malevolents (probably with an attached Prince and/or Baron) as an assault unit. I don't know if they're at all worthwhile, but their dual pistols mean they can at least act as a harassment unit. And, on the turn they charge, a minimum squad has 10 BS4 S4 shots with Pseudo-rending, followed by 20 WS4 S4 attacks. Lastly, 2 Melta Bombs per 5 mean they're a serious threat to vehicles.

All that said, I'm not sure they're worth it (especially compared to our impressive shooting). But, they don't seem too bad and might be fun at least.

HokutoAndy wrote:

Allied CWE, DE, or Harlequins seem a better deal for assault units overall.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Thu Jan 07 2016, 21:30

It really depends on what you want from your Coteries.
If you have a bunch of units deep striking/reserving and/or love getting a bonus victory point for hating and killing a specific enemy unit then I don't think the HQ is much of a tax. Paying 30 points for a baron for as cheap HQ is kind of annoying, but for the hate bringers that easily gets you am extra VP during the game. That makes his 30pts worth it IMHO. Same goes for reserve shenanigans. Since you have to take a prince and you probably want a void dreamer I don't see the corteri HQs as being much of a take.
I simply take the void dreamer as one of the corteri HQs. If I want a second coterie you will have to take a baron so just make him worth it. I'd say either as extra wounds to a unit or more psychic dice.

A CAD has it's uses like being able to reroll a warlord trait and with fewer restrictions and no extra HQ taxes. It also gives you access to fortifications like the Void Shield Generator.
I personally would not take a CAD because the coterie are more flavourful and the benifits seem pretty solid

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Fri Jan 08 2016, 12:43

I'm going Corsair Raiding Company all the way. The Coterie Specilizations are fantastic for me. Prior to the new books release, I've played a super reserve heavy game with my counts-as Corsairs Hornets, Swooping Hawks, Nightwings, Webway Portals etc. So getting access to the Coterie Specilizations is incredible... Skyburners in particular is the one I really have an eye on for Balestrike Band who is replacing my webway portal unit of death. To play them "like" corsairs I had to spend a big tax for my Dark Eldar allies, now I don't need that anymore so I couldn't be happier.

Also the hate bringers are a really interesting choice. Such an easy way to counteract first blood, warlord etc.

I really don't view the HQ's as taxes. At barebones they like a fully loaded Scorpion Exarch and they have access to cheap wargear like Shimmershields etc which are really nice. I build really "no frills" lists as far as units go which always leaves me room to have fun with my HQ's. I really work hard to streamline my lists so I can have a fun HQ's leading my army so I'm all about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Fri Jan 08 2016, 13:10

I'm probably going to go Corsair Detachment if I want to run a Seer Council, of CAD otherwise.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Fri Jan 08 2016, 13:39

Cavalier wrote:
I'm going Corsair Raiding Company all the way. The Coterie Specilizations are fantastic for me. Prior to the new books release, I've played a super reserve heavy game with my counts-as Corsairs Hornets, Swooping Hawks, Nightwings, Webway Portals etc. So getting access to the Coterie Specilizations is incredible... Skyburners in particular is the one I really have an eye on for Balestrike Band who is replacing my webway portal unit of death. To play them "like" corsairs I  had to spend a big tax for my Dark Eldar allies, now I don't need that anymore so I couldn't be happier.

Can I ask how you're running your deep-striking Blaestrikes?

Cavalier wrote:

I really don't view the HQ's as taxes. At barebones they like a fully loaded Scorpion Exarch

Except without all the rules and wargear that makes that Exarch good (a non-specialist Power Fist that strikes at initiative and +1A for each point of initiative you have over your opponent in a challenge).

Cavalier wrote:
and they have access to cheap wargear like Shimmershields etc which are really nice.


'Cheap' is debatable. Shimmershield costs 50% of a Baron. Also, the unit I'd most want a Shimmershield on (Balestrikes) can't be joined by a Baron anyway.

Cavalier wrote:
I build really "no frills" lists as far as units go which always leaves me room to have fun with my HQ's. I really work hard to streamline my lists so I can have a fun HQ's leading my army so I'm all about it.


I can respect that.

In fact, I'd be really interested to see your list(s).

Jimsolo wrote:
I'm probably going to go Corsair Detachment if I want to run a Seer Council, of CAD otherwise.

Is there a particular Coterie bonus you want for your Seer Council?
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Fri Jan 08 2016, 19:04

@Shredder- I'm running my Balestrike squad 7 guys, 5 with Dark Lances in a Skyburner Coterie. Keep them at a nice healthy distance when I can and use thrust moves to get out of LOS. I face a lot of armor so this gonna be very helpful. I'd like to have 8 guys, 3 with Lasblasters, but had to drop 1 for points. So the Void Dreamer who'll accompany them will be an ablative wound if need be.

As for the Baron, a Scorpion Exarch is better by far. He's a weird character but you could just take him barebones and stick him with a Reaver squad or upgrade him and put him on a bike. A 30pt tax isn't bad compared to the CW Warhosts detachment. 30pts for any Coterie specialization is pretty nice. Myself I'm gonna invest a bit more and rock a ML2 Void Dreamer instead relying primarily on Prescience and have him ride with the Balestrike band.

As for the list I've been contemplating this is my HARDCORE list I've got a variant with Shining Spears as well for my casual and fun games. This is basically to hold me over till I get a fully functioning solo Corsairs force going with Lynx a second Nightwing and various other odds and ends.

Lions of Asuryan- 1850 List

Corsairs Raiding Company (880 pts)
Skyburners

(135) Corsair Prince- Cloud Dancer, Shadowfield, Void Sabre, Combat Drugs

(75) Void Dreamer-ML 2, Wings

(90) Corsair Cloud Dancers x3- Scatter Lasers x3

(90) Corsair Cloud Dancers x3- Scatter Lasers x3

(125) Corsair Nightwing

(160) Corsair Hornets x2- Pulse Lasers

(80) Corsair Hornet x1- Pulse Lasers

(125) Balestrike Band x7- Wings, Dark Lances x5


Craftworld CAD (962pts)

(100) Autach- Jetbike, Laser Lance, Banshee Mask

(61) Wind Riders x3- Scatter Lasers x1
(61) Wind Riders x3- Scatter Lasers x1

(230) Seer Council
Farseer- Jetbike
Farseer- Jetbike

(250) Warlocks x4- Jetbikes

(310) Wraithknight- Cannons, Scatter Laser


Again this is my competitive list and will stand in as I transition to a pure Corsairs list. The Shining Spear variant should be quite good as well and a lot less expensive. I'm taking the Council as a delivery system for my Prince and close-combat punch in addition to the psychic shenanigans. It can also fly apart when need be for scoring purposes and solo-assaults. Anyway thats what I'm working on right now.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Fri Jan 08 2016, 20:41

Not so much a coterie bonus as two rerollable 2++ saves on bikes. The bonus VP would be my pick, probably, although it might vary depending on my enemy's list.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Fri Jan 08 2016, 20:43

Jimsolo wrote:
Not so much a coterie bonus as two rerollable 2++ saves on bikes.

But, could you not do that with a CAD?
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 09 2016, 10:42

I havnt bought the book yet (need to be sure there is some good combies for my DE in it first) and is and is basing my idea from what battlescrip writes.

First off all, ”a unit with the Corsair ”something”” is that a unit with only corsair in it? Or e.g. a DE elite with a Corsair prince or dreamer?

If its the secound, i see a lot of potential for making DE units with corsair Hqs

Grots or incubies with a 5++ , Path-Ward (always charging 12”!!) and ofc the Ward tunnel

Also joining a druglord to a grotesquerie? With some good roles, T8 5++/5+ fearless??? or S8?? for some tank hunting?
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 09 2016, 11:46

Cavalier, your lions of as urban log is what inspired me to paint my army lol. And your Eldar CAD looks almost exactly the same as mine. Only one problem I see. You're listing your seer council at 4 warlocks but I'm pretty sure it's 5 warlocks minimum.

I'd drop the single hornet.

Also, I know it may not be possible, but if you can find the points, warlock sergeants for your wind riders are nice because guaranteed shrouding goes a long way towards helping them survive that turbo boost to the backfield to steal an objective. Not to mention when you roll renewer and start healing your wraithknight.

Just my two cents.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 09 2016, 12:43

Hey thanks Red King I really appreciate it. Always good to have someone on the same page as you list-building wise. Thanks for the headsup on the possible error, Armybuilder didn't catch it but as we all know... Armybuilder isn't exactly the king of accuracy. A few updates ago I could put flamers and stuff on my Wraithknight, while cool isn't possible!

I hear you on the Warlocks on the JB's. I'd really love too... especially because I have the bits to make some really cool Warlocks and Seers. I've also got ambitious plans for these Warlocks/Seers and magnetize them so I can pop off their arms and heads and swap in Shining Spears in their place. It may not happen but I'm gonna try once I get the kits.

BTW could you hit me up with a link to your army's project-log? I'd love to see what you've been working on. Thank for the kind words I'm glad my project gave you some extra juice for painting your dudes. Cheers man!

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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 09 2016, 12:46

I could, but if I'm going to take the second HQ anyway, I might as well get a free VP out of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 09 2016, 13:13

Jimsolo wrote:
I could, but if I'm going to take the second HQ anyway, I might as well get a free VP out of it.

Ah, I see.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 09 2016, 14:48

I'm playing a game or two with corsairs myself today. I don't have all the stuff in that I ordered yet so I had to make my list without a few keys units like hornets and warwalkers that I intend to fit in later.

2 CAD's
2 Princes on bikes with shadowfields
5 man unit of cloud dancers with splinter cannons
2x 5 man cloud dancers with scatter lasers
5 man unit of cloud dancers with dark lances
4x 5 man corsair reavers with 2 blasters and venom (splinter cannon and scatter laser)
2 corsair nightwings
2 vyper jetbikes (dual shuriken cannon)

Going to try the princes as shields for whichever bike units are most important based on my opponent's army. Intend to stay at max range as much as possible until most big threats are whittled down then push in. I also had to take a bunch upgrades like felarchs and kinetic shrouds that I might not use when I get everything else in.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 09 2016, 14:52

I take it you're not concerned about the two CADs counting each other as Desperate Allies?
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 09 2016, 14:55

Does that apply to CAD's? I thought it was just the coteries within their detachment.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 09 2016, 14:58

lessthanjeff wrote:
Does that apply to CAD's?  I thought it was just the coteries within their detachment.

It's under the rule for Corsair Princes - if an army contains multiple detachments with Corsair Princes, they treat each other as Desperate Allies.
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PostSubject: Re: Corsair Tactics   Sat Jan 09 2016, 15:00

Ah, good catch.  I was looking at the internal politics rule.  It shouldn't be a big deal since I can make one of the CAD's just a couple of the venoms or bike units and leave them in the backfield or outflank with them, but I'll keep that in mind for next time.

Edit: Going to go ahead and just make the second one a baron with a shadow field or shimmer shield instead and add a few more upgrades to something else.
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