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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Tue Jan 19 2016, 08:39

@The Shredder wrote:
@Cerve wrote:

But u don't play it for that gimmick. They are 6 common Venoms. With 30 Wracks.

Yes, 30 Wracks that I don't sodding well want.

@Cerve wrote:

Don't care about first blood rule, is a nice solid classic DE list.

How is it a solid list? You've got 12 units whose combined anti-vehicle ability amounts to bugger all. Neutral

Most 'solid lists' comprise units that can't be outwitted by a rhino. Razz  


What's the problem? You have half of the points to spend in anti-tank

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Tue Jan 19 2016, 09:16

I suspect the problem is that Wracks are pretty terrible these days and he doesn't want to spend half his points on them.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Tue Jan 19 2016, 10:58

I want to remeber that these units give -1LD per Formation.
3 Scalpel get -3LD at bubble.
AND these Wracks are ALL Fearless from turn 2.

I think it's worth to think about it.

Even just 2 of theme
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Tue Jan 19 2016, 11:19

@Cerve wrote:
I want to remeber that these units give -1LD per Formation.

So do Grotesques, and they do it without being garbage.

@Cerve wrote:

AND these Wracks are ALL Fearless from turn 2.

See above.

@Cerve wrote:

I think it's worth to think about it.

I have, and I concluded that it wasn't remotely worth it.
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Wulfvin
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Tue Jan 19 2016, 15:23

The amount of sass going on here. Sheesh

But I gotta agree with Shredder here.
There are better ways to spend the points, than 2-3 Scalpel Formations.

The Scalpel Squad has its gimmick, its kinda fun, and can be used well and if you're smart wouldnt be completely destroyed before the rest of your stuff shows.


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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Tue Jan 19 2016, 16:13

Well, 3 Scalpel are something like 750 points. And you are fine with anti-infantry.
You have other 750 to think about anti-tank.

Anyway, honestly I never really tought about 3 formations. But 2....well, 2 Scalpel yes. They get a better null deploy zone to me (1 is too risky, if that's the way you wanna go), 2 are fine.


...and nothing prevent to take Grots with the rest of the points :p
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Tue Jan 19 2016, 16:25

@Cerve wrote:
Well, 3 Scalpel are something like 750 points. And you are fine with anti-infantry.

But, again, why would I want to?

Why wouldn't I take, say, Warriors in Venoms? They (and their Venoms) can be Objective Secured, they're 10pts cheaper base than the Wracks, and they have actual guns. As opposed to two butter knives and a whole lot of hope. Razz

@Cerve wrote:

Anyway, honestly I never really tought about 3 formations. But 2....well, 2 Scalpel yes. They get a better null deploy zone to me (1 is too risky, if that's the way you wanna go), 2 are fine.

Is one scalpel squad really that risky? It's still 4 squads, and you can use the disembark move + run to get the wracks into cover, then use the Venoms' flat out to get them behind terrain (preferably LoS-blocking) as well. I'd have thought most lists would struggle to kill all of them.

It just seems to me that dedicating about 520pts to crappy squads to enable null-deployment kinda defeats the purpose of even bothering with null deployment. It's like keeping your money away from the tax man by setting it on fire. Razz

@Cerve wrote:

...and nothing prevent to take Grots with the rest of the points :p

But why take Scalpel Squads over Grots in the first place? Neutral
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Thu Jan 21 2016, 14:55

I think the point is to consider Wracks as a bad squad. I don't think at all.

They are at least Kabalites with T4, fnp, and Fearless. With some poison in CC instead of shooting.
Yes, normally Kabalites are better. But we are talk thinking about the Scalpel Squadron...so IF I have to choose the Scalpel, I think i will choose at least 2 of theme. One....well, doesn't seems good to me. With 2 I can hope at least to go for First Blood. And a better survivor for a null deploy zone.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Thu Jan 21 2016, 15:06

@Cerve wrote:

They are at least Kabalites with T4, fnp, and Fearless. With some poison in CC instead of shooting.

They're also more expensive, lack Objective Secured and don't have guns.

Yes, they have poison CCWs, but why would you want them? Do you feel that guns are a bit too useful, and you'd rather give your enemy a sporting chance by engaging him with an arsenic-smeared bread knife? Wink

@Cerve wrote:

Yes, normally Kabalites are better. But we are talk thinking about the Scalpel Squadron...so IF I have to choose the Scalpel, I think i will choose at least 2 of theme. One....well, doesn't seems good to me. With 2 I can hope at least to go for First Blood. And a better survivor for a null deploy zone.

Each to his own.

Literally the only reason I'd even consider a Scalpel Squadron would be for a null deployment army. In which case, I'd take one and deep strike them where I can easily flat-out/run to good hiding positions with the various units. First Blood be buggered.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Thu Jan 21 2016, 15:16

Don't know, I don't feel confortable with DS...I prefer some Talos, Mamdrakes, other choice to null deploy.
If I play the Scalpel, I try to get out more than a simply null deploy tactics. That's all Smile
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Fri Jan 22 2016, 01:32

@The Shredder wrote:
Literally the only reason I'd even consider a Scalpel Squadron would be for a null deployment army. In which case, I'd take one and deep strike them where I can easily flat-out/run to good hiding positions with the various units. First Blood be buggered.

I concur.

Assuming you were playing this type of army, what source of reserves manipulation do you favour?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Fri Jan 22 2016, 09:44

The honest answer is that I almost never do play that type of army. Not least because my group often plays 2v2s - so my null deploying would just be painting a target on my ally. Razz

But, if I was going to use that sort of list, Eldar allies with an Autarch would probably be a good bet.

There's also the option of a Corsairs Sky Burners Coterie (which lets you reroll reserve rolls for those units). It won't help the rest of your army, but it might still be enough to make sure you get a decent amount of stuff on the board early on.

I'm probably not the best person to ask though.
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huymix
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Mon Jan 25 2016, 20:27

Realistically, I think naked Wracks is the way to go. I'm not sure about your play group but the local area tends to run a lot of MSU. Especially Eldar (bikes) and D-Cannons/ Necrons (Tomb Spyder for the Canoptek Harvest), single inquisitor for anti-scout, SM scouts etc. such that the venoms could pull off First Blood even without the Ossefactor.

Which is of course a nice little bonus for the null deploy aka the real reason you take this formation.

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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Sat Jan 30 2016, 02:41

I like the Ossefactor, it gives something to do while running to combat.

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Sat Jan 30 2016, 08:47

I see Wracks mostly as an Ossefactor delivery system. Razz
And Venoms deepstriking on turn one is a nice bonus to that.
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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Sat Jan 30 2016, 22:47

I found the Ossefactor to be pretty good. Though I use my SS for nul deployment shenanigans rather than trying to get the extra VPs, if you find a nice minimal scout squad or a minimal scatter bike squad out on its own, you can reasonably take it out with the Ossefactors and 24 splinter shots...  The liquifyer guns are too short range.  They expose you to way too much return fire.  

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Ultra Magnus
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PostSubject: Re: scalpel load    Mon Feb 01 2016, 20:07

I think the best way to think about the Scalpel Squadron is as EITHER a null deploy or first blood tool.

On the first blood front, one thing folks are forgetting is that the Scalpel Squadron does not need to kill the unit BY ITSELF, only deliver the KILLING BLOW. If my whole army is on the table, it is pretty easy to pop a Rhino with lances and then thin out the infantry with just enough splinter fire to allow the Scalpel Squad units to finish it off and get the points.

In that scenario the Scalpel Squad works great. You get two venoms worth of alpha strike before jinx/return fire, some additional Ossefactor fire, and some ability to put additional points on the board early. The relative value of the Wracks themselves is totally secondary.
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