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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: How to Seize the Initiative    Mon Nov 30 2015, 23:47

So I had a killpoint game, and lost. Kind of expected, but not gettin first turn hurt me I think.

So I was tryin to think of ways to make it easier to seize or ways to prevent my enemy from doin it.

All I could think of was Coteaz, but there must be other ways. Any one know any? (Characters, allies, anything at all)

Cheers
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Mon Nov 30 2015, 23:56

In the last Codex one of the Necron characters gave you a bonus to Seize.

There's also the Warlord trait which occurs on the Strategic table (my preferred DE table ANYway), and I think there's a CWE Warlord trait that does something with it as well.

Other than that, I just try to deploy for minimal impact if I get Seized on. (And deploy under the assumption that I will never Seize.)
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Bugs_N_Orks
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 04:24

Callidus assassins also give you a re-roll to seize.  So does one of the DE warlord traits (although most of the rest are garbage compared to the Strategic Table).  If your opponent has a Lord of War from the Escalation book you get +1 to seize (possibly if they have any LoW, not totally sure about that though).

One of the Harlequin warlord traits actually gives you a +4 bonus to seize, but only a Troupe Master can get that one.
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 04:58

These are all interesting suggestions.
I was aware of the DE Warlord Trait, as well as the Strategic trait.
I didn't know about the Callidus. I have a Culexus and an Eversor, and with the new clamp packs I might pick up a new callidus.

However what I was really hoping for was a set Trait or ability that is always in place.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 05:30

Imotekh used to have one. Does he not any more?
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 07:05

I believe you're thinking of "Hyperlogical Strategy"(4+ Seize except against Orks)
No longer part of his rule set unfortunately.

"Reign of Confusion" that Callidus brings lets you re-roll your Seize.

"Spy Network": Allows you to re-roll the Seize or force your
opponent to re-roll.


"Strategic Genius" gives you +1 to any Seize the Initiative roll. Also reserve re-rolls.

No CWE trait effects seize as far as I can tell, although "Eye on distant Events" does give you D3 units ability to scout.

And of course every-bodies favorite most Trait, "Labyrinthine Cunning"
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 07:59

A bit of puckery that I've never actually managed to get fly, but is nevertheless RAW:

Strategic Genius allows you to modify your OPPONENT's rolls. Why does this matter? RAW, you only Seize on a 6, not a 6+. (So you could choose argue that Strategic Genius will negate your opponent Seizing.)

CLEARLY not Rules as Intended, but a funny little side note nevertheless.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 08:43

I don't think improving your chance of seizing is a cost effective solution. How many kill points did your list have? How many did your opponents have? Why is not going first hurting you?

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 09:32

@Mushkilla wrote:
I don't think improving your chance of seizing is a cost effective solution. How many kill points did your list have? How many did your opponents have? Why is not going first hurting you?

Pretty much this. It is more likely that improving your overall strategy/deployment/list would be a better solution.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 09:56

Use weighted dice. Very Happy
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 10:06


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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 10:08

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Shocked

It's...

It's perfect. Twisted Evil
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 18:53

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@Mushkilla wrote:
I don't think improving your chance of seizing is a cost effective solution. How many kill points did your list have? How many did your opponents have? Why is not going first hurting you?

Pretty much this. It is more likely that improving your overall strategy/deployment/list would be a better solution.


Klaivex and Mushkilla? My heart flutters.

Anyway, my 2500 point list had 25 killpoints. His had considerably less.
Briefly, lists were something like-
Grotesquerie, Aspect Host, DE CAD with WWPs and vehicles for all my Eldar buddies, Eldar CAD so I could take my 'Knight.
He played a 30k list, so not as familiar with the units. 3 Dreads(I was Mortis), 2 vehicle squadrons(Melta blastsx2 and dakka predsx3), several Legion squads, large termie squad, bike squad, Thallax, Castellax and Priest(Made one unit)?

I think my strategy was relatively sound (for me at least).
Tried for Night fighting, failed. On first turn, I lost Ravager. Jinked and all that, but still. Bike moved towards Reapers. Beautiful right? 2 wounds that didn't get through (cover)

Annnnd I'm getting picked up for work so I finish exciting story later. My bad.
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 19:49

You dont turn down rides to work. This is Australia.  There are snakes.

Anyway, Reapers fluffed their attacks, their venom got destroyed and they got charged and wiped.
My 2 fire dragon squads dropped in T2, destroyed a dread and the entire dakka pred squad. I love Dragons.
Grot squad got charged by termies (they charged through a building into them. My mistake with positioning) that combat swallowed 2 grot squads and my reduced incubi squad, as 2nd grot squad with autarch charged in for support and incubi took 2 turns to get there and killed 1 termie. Lost combat and Incubi broke. Grots stayed and just kept taking hits.  
Eventually the 'Knight got there after destroying a dread and the castellax unit and finished termies off.
A bit disjointed of a report I know.

As a side note, 2 dragons, windriders and dire avengers were held in reserve.

I just felt that if I had gotten 1st turn my shooting could have been more effective and I could have dictated flow of combat a bit better.
I know my tactics definitely could've been better, but being able to Seize is just something that could help. Possibly.

Thanks for readung that jibberish.

And where can I get me some of those dice Count?


Last edited by flakmonkey on Tue Dec 01 2015, 20:24; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 20:07

Sometimes you just need to take the hard losses and learn from there. I don't think improving your chances to Seize would have changed the result.

Instead think of ways of improving how you use units, maybe reserve some, maybe focus your whole army on killing a small portion of his, maybe use cover better - infact did you know that the front of the Ravager hull only measures 3" across - so why Jink when you only need to hide 0.75 of an inch!!

Edit: or maybe it was a case of a little bad luck from the dice gods....coz that happens

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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 20:21

Rather than trying to force rerolls on Seize, why not try to go for some sort of Null Deploy option against heavy firepower armies where you don't have sufficient LoS-blocking terrain to weather the first turn relatively intact?

Two Warrior + Blaster Venoms (if you're running those) can be upgrade to two Wrack + Ossefactor Venoms for the Scalpel Squadron for just 20 points, and if you're running an Autarch anyway you'll have your guys coming in on a 2+.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 20:31

What size board do you play on? How much terrain is on the board?

On a standard 6x4' board 2500 points won't give you much space to hide/maneuver making the game more of a shooting gallery. This makes it very likely that if your opponent goes first your army will be crippled turn 1. Combine this with having a kill points disadvantage, and I'm not surprised that whoever gets turn 1 determines whether you lose or even stand a chance.

That aside, with regular DE in 1.5k kill point games I use the reserve heavy strategy outlined bellow.

@Mushkilla wrote:
Our opponents are likely to have a lot less. If they had 10KP and killed 10 of our units we would have to table them to win (unless we scored more secondaries)! Not something we can count on.

So what can we do without modifying the list?

1) We can reserve as much of our army as possible. Keeping the minimum we can hide on the board and our opponent cant threaten.

2) We should aim to go second as this reduces the number of turns our opponent can shoot or units coming I'm from reserve. If our reserves come on turn 2 and we went second our opponent will have missed two shooting phases against them (whilst our reserve unit has only misses one turn of shooting).

3) Deepstrike and flat out where our opponent isnt. We might be fragile but we have the speed to minimise incoming fire. Jink is also invaluable here.

4) If a transport can be shot and destroyed (and it cant flat out to safety) disembark the troops from it and hide them out of site so your opponent doesn't kill two birds with one stone.

5) Do the above until turn 5-6 if you can. Every turn you bide is a turn that makes your units more survivable through power from pain. The only exception to this is if you can get first blood or kill a unit without giving your opponent a kill point or more in return. Turn 5-6 you need to think about going for kills and line breaker. Remember if you went second turn 5 there is a 33% your chance your opponent won't be able to shoot back after you engage as the game will end (turn 6 there is  a 50% chance, and turn 7 you can go in without any retaliation).

These five points outline how I play kill points with MSU Dark eldar. It is by no means exhaustive though.

Not sure how well that works at 2.5k though.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 22:30

Quote :
On a standard 6x4' board 2500 points won't give you much space to hide/maneuver making the game more of a shooting gallery. This makes it very likely that if your opponent goes first your army will be crippled turn 1.

Also I would argue the bigger the game the more snowbally turn 1 becomes.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 22:53

Null Deployment is a powerful option if you worry about first turn.

As an aside, I do agree with Klaivex and Mush: putting points into assuring first turn is probably going to turn out poorly.
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Tue Dec 01 2015, 22:55

@Mushkilla - Terrain was pretty decent. Didn't feel like planet bowling ball at all. But I am starting to hate "I can see through this window/door/catflap.

I think as I didn't have first turn I probably should've reserved heavier. I had the Autarch so it wouldve been okay.
Since I was goin 2nd I deployed too cautiously, my opponent mentioned this in post-game discussion too.

Should probably brush up on my "Pragmatic Realspace Raider" ☺

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Wed Dec 02 2015, 01:53

This is going to sound facetious... I don't mean it that way, I promise Embarassed

To truly minimise the times you are seized against, elect to go second when you win the roll for first turn.

Why would you go second in a kill points game? Why indeed... let your opponent wonder about your secret, cunning plan as he or she deploys. Drop hints about how "it's better to go second in this kind of scenario anyway..." to get them thinking. Then, once they have set up you can:

a) null deploy. Hahaha! Take that! Wasted shooting phase for you!
b) play for the seize. Setup aggressively, preferably with your strength isolated against the more vulnerable or slower flank, and of course paying some attention to cover. In most cases you won't seize successfully, so in those cases hopefully your deployment will be able to throw your opponent off enough to give you the upper hand.

But when you put yourself in a position to massively exploit a seize, and pull it off... Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Wed Dec 02 2015, 10:11

If you null deploy, Dark Eldar have no means of brining units on first turn except with the Fleshcorps Scalpel Squadron. And they're not great. If you null-deploy, you will lose, because you won;t have anything on the board at the end of game turn one.


Last edited by Squidmaster on Wed Dec 02 2015, 15:14; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Wed Dec 02 2015, 10:18

@Squidmaster wrote:
If you null deploy, Dark Eldar have no means of brining units on first turn except with the Fleshcorps. And they're not great. If you null-deploy, you will lose, because you won;t have anything on the board at the end of game turn one.

Scalpel Squadrons automatically arrive turn 1. You will presumably null deploy only if going second so at least some of the the rest of your army will hopefully arrive turn 2. Can be risky though. If your reserve rolls are poor you still risk an auto loss at end of turn 2.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Wed Dec 02 2015, 12:48

Even with this dice, dark lance would still miss.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: How to Seize the Initiative    Wed Dec 02 2015, 15:13

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Squidmaster wrote:
If you null deploy, Dark Eldar have no means of brining units on first turn except with the Fleshcorps. And they're not great. If you null-deploy, you will lose, because you won;t have anything on the board at the end of game turn one.

Scalpel Squadrons automatically arrive turn 1. You will presumably null deploy only if going second so at least some of the the rest of your army will hopefully arrive turn 2. Can be risky though. If your reserve rolls are poor you still risk an auto loss at end of turn 2.

Apologies, I meant Scalpel Squadron, not the Fleshcorps.
But they're still not great, and not capable of taking an army of fire before the rest of your force turns up.
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