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skp
Hellion
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PostSubject: Can someone..   Thu Nov 19 2015, 14:36

...explain the whole allies thing? I'm looking to start up my second army, Coverns to be exact, I have the rule book and the Coverns book (of course the DE too) but.. that's pretty much the only thing I understand.. Where do I even start?

How do I take Covern as my main force? Since you have to take 1 hq + 2 troops mandatory still no?

If the above case is true.. then how do you do it as there are no troops choices for Covern-esk units (I will be running a themed army)

Ugh.. I'm so confused.. please help, I seriously have NO clue what to do or how to even do it.

sKP
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone..   Thu Nov 19 2015, 14:50

Okay, first thing to do is, as a wise man thing once said, unlearn what you have learned!

7th edition uses detachments in a slightly different way to previous versions of the game. The Combined Arms Detachment (CAD) in the main rules is only one example of a detachment. Most codexes and various other sources have other options for detachments (and I include Formations when I say detachments, as Formations are simply a special kind of detachment).

Using the Covens book as an example, this contains the Covenite Coterie detachment. This consists of:

COMPULSORY
2 HQ
2 Elites
OPTIONAL
4 HQ
6 Elites
4 Heavy Support

It also restricts what units you are allowed to take within those slots and gives some special rules to the detachment in the same way that a CAD lets you reroll Warlord Traits and gives Troop units Objective Secured. You could use this in place of or as well as a CAD (although you can't take a CAD from the Covens book as there are no Troop units in that book).

The Covens book also contains a number of Formations, such as Scalpel Squadron, Dark Artisans, etc. These can be taken in addition to a Covenite Coterie or other detachment or they can be taken individually. It's entirely up to you.

An additional note on the Allied Detachment from the main rulebook. A lot of people get a bit confused by this and think it's the only way to take allies. It isn't. You can use the Allied Detachment if you wish or you can take a CAD or one of the special detachments that are available to other armies or one of their formations etc. The Allied Detachment is rather limiting in that you cannot take it from the same faction as your primary detachment but it can be useful if there's one specific thing from another codex that you want in your army. You can get that at the cost of 1 HQ and 1 Troop, which is usually quite cheap.

Here's an example which hopefully helps explain:

Let's say we want to take some Coven units as our Primary Detachment and also Codex: Dark Eldar and some Craftworld Eldar allies. We cannot use a CAD for our Coven force as there are no Troops units. We can take a Covenite Coterie and/or we can pick any of the Formations from that book. We cannot take a DE Allied Detachment as they are still Dark Eldar in terms of Faction. We can however take a CAD or use the Realspace Raiders detachment from the DE Codex. We can take an Allied Detachment for the Eldar as they are a different faction. We could however take an Eldar CAD or use a Craftworld Warhosts from their codex or take any of their formations, such as a Windrider Host, Seer Council etc.

Hope that helps.

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Last edited by Count Adhemar on Thu Nov 19 2015, 15:00; edited 2 times in total
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone..   Thu Nov 19 2015, 14:53

Ok.

Your army is made of Detachments. YOu can have as many Detachments as you like, as long as you fulfil the minimum requirements for them.
The Combined Arms detachment for example has a minimum requirement of 1 HQ and 2 Troops.
Formations are also forms of Detachment, just a lot stricter on whats in them.

When you select your army, you choose one Detachment to be your Primary. This will be the Detachment your Warlord is in.

You can use ANY Detachments you want to make your army. If you really wanted to, your army could be made up of a Space Marine Detachment, a Dark Eldar Detachment, and a Tyranid Formation. There is nothing to stop this.
The Allies rules point out how well different armies work with each other. Elader and Dark Eldar for example work together as Battle Brothers, so basically work as the same army.
Tyranids and everyone though are Come The Apocalype, meaning that units too close to each other may simply stop doing anything because they don't like that level of alliance.

So if in this case you have a Dark Eldar force, and want to add Covens, technically you're not using Allies. They're all the Dark Eldar Faction. But you can have any number of Dark Eldar Detachments or Formations alongside each other.
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skp
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone..   Thu Nov 19 2015, 15:07

Ok excellent, thank you to both of you for explaining and pointing it out, I'll post up a Coverns army and hope to see you boys/girls there for pointers if it's legal or not Smile

Once again, helped a lot!

sKP.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone..   Fri Nov 20 2015, 01:48

Also worth mentioning that Allies and Allied Detachment are 2 different things.

You can take any (and I mean ANY) codex in the game and apply the Allies rules to see how the forces work in your army.

The Allied detachment is one way of taking allies with a specific FOC and set of bonuses and limits.

Getting these mixed up is probably the most common mistake I see as a TO

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skp
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone..   Fri Nov 20 2015, 10:20

So, just to clarify.. If I run a pure DE army, there's nothing say that I must take 1 HQ and 2 Troops? I could theoretically take 1 Archon and 10 Ravagers? or am I becoming confused once more.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone..   Fri Nov 20 2015, 10:22

@skp wrote:
So, just to clarify.. If I run a pure DE army, there's nothing say that I must take 1 HQ and 2 Troops? I could theoretically take 1 Archon and 10 Ravagers? or am I becoming confused once more.

You could do that but it would be Unbound. This is perfectly legal but many people and most tournaments don't use it. In order to have a battle-forged army, all your models must be organised into detachments.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone..   Fri Nov 20 2015, 10:28

The best way to understand it is in Detachments.
Your army (if bound - the version most like to play) is made up of Detachments, each of which has their own minimum unit requirements. You can use Detachments from ANY Codex in the same army as long as you meet the minimum requirements for each. The only hinderance is that the Allies rules will affect how well units from different Codecies work with each other.
Because they're Battle Brothers, an Eldar Farseer for example can target a Dark Eldar squad with a Blessing psychic power, but could not target an allied Necron.
A Space Marine could ride in a Chimera because Guard and marines are Battle Brothers, but could not ride in a Tyrannocyte, because Marines and Nids are Come The Apocaylpse Allies.
These types of options can still be taken in the army, but many don't mesh well together.
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skp
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone..   Wed Nov 25 2015, 22:27

To bring this to light once more, I apologise but......

Can one Haemonculus be apart of several formations? Such as a Covenite Fleshcorps AND and a Grotesquerie?


sKP
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone..   Wed Nov 25 2015, 22:55

No.  Nothing can be part of more than one formation.  Units can still join when appropriate.  (For instance, the Haemonculus from a Scarlet Epicurean formation can join a squad of grots from a Grotesquerie, but if you take both formations you must still purchase two haemonculi.)
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