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 Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)

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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Fri Nov 06 2015, 14:37

A quick comparison of Wyches to Daemonetts, shows how poor wyches really are.

Daemonetts are similar to wyches with the following differences

Daemonetss have:
+1WS
-1 Initiative
+1 Attacks (but no pistol)
Rending
Run an additional 3”
More or less fearless (but at a cost) due to daemonic instability
They have 5++ all the time
And they are 1pt cheaper

The only better thing wyches have is a pistol, but is a pistol really that good?

Personally I’d prefer to field daemonetts than wyches. However how often do you see / hear of daemonetts being played. That’s because they are a poor choice and would only ever feature in slaanesh list (no I’ve never seen a slaanesh list real life either).

So basically wyches are worse and cost more than daemonetts, which are seen as a bad unit. What does that make wyches?
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Fri Nov 06 2015, 15:13

*The next day, during his weekend, John received a call from Bob*

-John, we forgot to update the wracks. Could you do something about it today?

.........
......
..
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 03:36

The best use for wyches is to make perfect little dust free circles on your shelf.  Simply decide on a pattern (I recommend a frownie face) and leave them there on your shelf for the next 2-3 years.  Best possible usage.

Corsairs coming soon.  Sadly there basically won't be any reason to play dark eldar at all at that point (as long as noone screams "Forgeworld Cheese" at you while plopping down their multiple wraithknights).  You can run some dark eldar units as corsair units without changing anything at all.  You wouldn't be making the most of the list, but you could easily do a whole army or just add in some units to fill missing roles like the firestorm.

In the mean time I'll keep playing my renegades when i want to just have some fun and my marine scout msu when I want to actually put up a good fight (vs craftworlders).  5 scouts in a skimmer transport is cheaper than 5 wyches in a venom...  Want to add a heavy bolter and melta bombs? Still cheaper.

I can't even begin to tell you how much more flexible and effective scouts are.  That's before troop/character/land speeder upgrades.


Last edited by stilgar27 on Sat Nov 07 2015, 04:43; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Removed Speculation on release date)
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grisumbras
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 05:34

@Barking Agatha wrote:

You see, about a year and a half ago, a Games Workshop employee who was very much in love with his girlfriend was stunned when she told him that their relationship was through. 'It's not you,' she said, 'it's me. I... I've met someone else.'

Do you think Hellions were also nerfed badly because that girl left John for a skateboarder?
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 10:10

Okay. Wyches suck.

Do Succubi suck? If i want to take cheap escort for Warlord Succubus - do they work fine? As an ablative 4++ wounds and ObjSec? Should i take Hekatrix or just Wyches?

Everything else is too expensive, Grots for example, Wracks loosing the unit fleet. And i just want to use her and she doesnt seem too bad.

Seeing as we basically get better the later the game turn is the plan is to have a Reserve Raider and flush something from objective later in the game, when there are fewer models on board and movement have been done and its clear what is vulnerable. Kinda like opportunist light cavalry, ditching something really weak or wounded, or dumping them into threat that got out of control.

And at the same time not too expensive to detract from main force.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 10:57

@stilgar27 wrote:
The best use for wyches is to make perfect little dust free circles on your shelf.  Simply decide on a pattern (I recommend a frownie face) and leave them there on your shelf for the next 2-3 years.  Best possible usage.

lol!

@stilgar27 wrote:
In the mean time I'll keep playing my renegades when i want to just have some fun and my marine scout msu when I want to actually put up a good fight (vs craftworlders).  5 scouts in a skimmer transport is cheaper than 5 wyches in a venom...  Want to add a heavy bolter and melta bombs? Still cheaper.  

I can't even begin to tell you how much more flexible and effective scouts are.  That's before troop/character/land speeder upgrades.

Well that's... depressing.

@stilgar27 wrote:
Corsairs coming soon.  Sadly there basically won't be any reason to play dark eldar at all at that point (as long as noone screams "Forgeworld Cheese" at you while plopping down their multiple wraithknights).  You can run some dark eldar units as corsair units without changing anything at all.  You wouldn't be making the most of the list, but you could easily do a whole army or just add in some units to fill missing roles like the firestorm.

I suspect much of my stuff will soon be run as Corsairs.

My HQ models have all signed on to have their names legally changed to 'Corsair Prince'.

@Azdrubael wrote:

Do Succubi suck?

By the standards of our book? They're... alright. I mean, they die if anyone so much as coughs in their general direction, and they're basically a Klaivex for 3 times the cost, but they also get the only good melee weapon in our entire HQ section.

However, if the Succubus was an HQ choice in any other book, the players would simply rip out her page and throw it into the nearest bin. If anyone mentioned her in polite conversation, you'd get an embarrassed silence and a general air that some things are best ignored.

@Azdrubael wrote:
If i want to take cheap escort for Warlord Succubus - do they work fine?

No. The best thing you can do for a Succubus is hide it in a unit that's actually hard to remove - i.e. Grotesques.

Otherwise, you've got a T3 Warlord with no save,being "guarded" by a few T3 models, also with no save. Do bear in mind that Objective Secured only works if your models are intact. Having their innards splattered on the objective doesn't count. Wink
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 11:10

Quote :
No. The best thing you can do for a Succubus is hide it in a unit that's actually hard to remove - i.e. Grotesques.
Grots however arent belong to reserve strategy, they are upfront and personal unit. And again for me they began from 4 model unit. And thats expensive. Trying to make that death star that can go all units just make mediocre death star while spending arm and a leg.

And everybody knows what to do with it - that unit is expensive and fast, shoot the crap out of it.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 11:25

I don't follow your logic. At all.

1) You say that Grots don't belong in a reserve strategy because they need to get close and personal. So instead you're taking wyches... who don't even get a save unless they're in combat. Question

2) You then go on to talk about making a death star unit that can go up against all units? Eh? Who said anything about a death star? Grots with a succubus aren't a death star. Not even close.

Moreover, what exactly are you building your wytch-star for then? It seems you're exchanging a survivable unit that can at least hold its own against most things, for a unit that could get beaten by an angry kitten.

3) Um... what exactly makes wyches immune to the 'shoot the crap out of it' plan? Grotesques at least have T5, 3 wounds and FNP to protect them. Wyches have nothing whatsoever. You're basically offering up your warlord point on a silver platter.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 11:37

Im going really MSU, and i want to have something in reserve.

I figured this something might be not so expensive squad of Succubi + something. Its protection should be Jinking Raider, im thinking with NS, positioning and the offense real part of the army do. That light unit should score point/deny point.

Problem i found is that if you shoot some unit in cover - you can do some damage but enemy will still be there, with models left. Assault is more decisive, you get to swing 2 times a turn, your own and the enemies.

I play with friends, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Orks, nothing too competitive.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 11:56

Well, if you want a unit that can shift units out of cover, have you considered 3 Medusae?

The best part is that they don't even need to leave their Jinking Raider to kill their target. Very Happy
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 11:59

That is an option Smile Still, i need to buy them )
Thats WWP archon you suggesting, right? Or Succi as well?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 12:18

I'd go with WWP Archon with the Medusae. Probably with a blaster.

Unless you want to have some fun - in which case make him a gunslinger. Very Happy
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 14:06

You don't need to buy them. Just convert your witches! I did it and they are great!
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 14:13

Medusae seem like one of those units where you can probably get away with just about anything, conversion wise.

I mean, their wargear amounts to 'an eye'. Possibly with some armour.

You could probably just have them as floating eyes and (if you'll excuse the expression), no one would bat an eye.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 14:23

I proxy the old heamonculus with liquifiers. Did a few small conversions but yeah, 3 Medusa plus wwp Archon equals dead Marines. I run them in every list because why not
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 14:26

@The Shredder wrote:
Medusae seem like one of those units where you can probably get away with just about anything, conversion wise.

I mean, their wargear amounts to 'an eye'. Possibly with some armour.

You could probably just have them as floating eyes and (if you'll excuse the expression), no one would bat an eye.

This is very true.  Personally I kit-bashed female wych torsos with some fantasy elf legs swathed in chain skirts.  Added the "bubble heads" that flare out in the back and added some jewelry chain and green stuff to make them look suitably infested and restrained.

Unless my opponent is a dark eldar player, he's not going to know they're conversions.

Not that anyone but me cares but I made a small math error before - 5 scouts + speeder + another heavy bolter + meltabombs is 1 point more than 5 naked wyches in a naked venom.  I thought heavy bolters were 5 points, but I must have been thinking of the upgrade to make the heavy bolter 2+ poison and blast Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Sat Nov 07 2015, 14:30

15 wyches = 50 conscripts.

It costs 1 point more per model to give tau fire warriors haywire grenades. That means Tau fire warriors are better than everything in our army at killing tanks (IN CLOSE COMBAT). That's depressing.


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