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 Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)

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Pilosocereus
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PostSubject: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 12:58

I have a copy of what I wrote if you're bothered, seems wyches really are dead. Some great comments on it all. It's made my week.

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Last edited by Pilosocereus on Sat Nov 07 2015, 14:24; edited 5 times in total
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 13:04

Just take Kabalites to do exactly the same job, except cheaper and better ?
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 13:07

Quote :
But no-matter what, they will either tie up a 50 man guards squad, die by shooting from someone trying to grab an objective. Or they may be ignored due to bad press and score you that winning objective.

1) They won't cause they just die in overwatch
2) Then they are dead and your opponent controls the objective
3) If they sit on an objective they get killed, no matter how bad they are. You do not let a lone absorberbase sit on an objective either.

So basically the TL;DR of your post is:

They are extremely bad, tell that to your opponent and hope he is a dork and ignores them when they sit on an objective.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 13:10

Maybe i'm just desperately trying to find a strategy for a unit that is dead after all, but there is always hope.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 13:16

Not for Klaivex. I'm amazed that he's still playing the true kin with that amount of "we are not competitive" talk.

I see witches in the position to fight low Armour squads or squads with low model count. Shield and hammer Terminators or Hormagaunts. Everyone keeps forgetting the drugs. The main problem is that the roll for drugs can be utter garbage but can also make them great! Too much random for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 13:20

I was taking into account things like drugs, but 50% of the time it's a shambles. People really will get greedy and scared and try and take them out if you remind them of that 6+ armor. Then you laugh as you take your cover save. They have a place...

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 13:22

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 13:30

Nah... im going to do this CptMetal style:

They are an underused unit with much hidden power if you know how to play them. If you move tactically and use them right they are devastating and can win you a lot of games. There is just no one who can use them correctly (And Im not giving any examples because I do not know myself. But if anyone wants some I quickly make a siutation up and if im presented with counter arguments I rely on ad hominem and try to quickly call them out as beeing overly negative while I silently hope that knowbody else realized that I dont have the slightest idea)
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 13:55

You didn't read what I wrote, right? I said that I don't use them myself because they are too random and only work against certain units.

I get that we don't have a top tier codex. I really do. But somehow I'm fine with that. Do I want changes? Of course! I'd love have rending on my witches. But I try to offer solutions not just some "doesn't matter, it's garbage" part. Are they 100% valid? No! Of course not!

So please, please please, read before you attack me and try to offer something else than "it's no use".
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 15:49

Don't waste your time. I've decided he actually only plays decurion Necron with allied wraithknights or something and comes here to "slum it" with us terrible Dark Eldar players because it makes him feel superior. That's all I gather from his posts anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 16:06

Let's say you had three sticks, and your job was to put them together to make a 10-foot pole. The first stick is 2 ft long, the second stick is 1 ft long, and the third stick was 3 ft long but has been put through a wood chipper.

Some people would say, 'It can't be done.'

Others would say, 'That's a very negative attitude. Let us try to find the solution to the problem instead of complaining that it can't be done.'
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 18:05

Does anyone else here see the head-smashing futility of trying to make an overpriced and underwhelming unit seem attractive when compared with our opponents underpriced and overwhelming ones?
Anyone?

It is an exercise in futility to try and find an undiscovered "niche" for wyches. There is none. With the loss of haywire, they became a useless unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 18:21

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Let's say you had three sticks, and your job was to put them together to make a 10-foot pole. The first stick is 2 ft long, the second stick is 1 ft long, and the third stick was 3 ft long but has been put through a wood chipper.

Some people would say, 'It can't be done.'

Others would say, 'That's a very negative attitude. Let us try to find the solution to the problem instead of complaining that it can't be done.'

lol!

Can I sig this?

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Does anyone else here see the head-smashing futility of trying to make an overpriced and underwhelming unit seem attractive when compared with our opponents underpriced and overwhelming ones?
Anyone?

I do.

Obviously people are free to take whatever they want, but I think it's best to understand why you're taking it. Starting from a point of self-delusion is unlikely to end well. If you kid yourself into thinking that a unit is somehow good, then you're only setting yourself up for disappointment.

Personally, I'd actually advise going into a game with the mindset that you're playing with 160pts (or however much you spend on wytches) less than your opponent. When designing your army, treat those points as if they're already gone. After that, anything the squad does can only be a bonus.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 19:44

They're half decent if you use a Covens Haemonculus (so he can take the Sump for Fleet), so they have Furious Charge on T3. Deepstrike them in on T2, spend a turn jinking, then go in with Furious Charge. Plasma Grenades are actually quite strong as shooting attacks go, and the Hekatrix with Agonizer essentially autowins challenges against any one-wound characters that don't have a 2+. I'll admit that I don't use any myself, but that's probably the way to go.

If you use a very Covens-heavy list - Dark Artisan, Grotesquerie, and so on, and only take a Dark Eldar CAD so that you have some anti-tank support from Ravagers and such, and maybe to put in other melee units like Reavers, I could see some value in choosing Wyches as your Troops choices just to maximize the number of assault threats on the battlefield. Not convinced it's the right play, but I certainly think it's defensible.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 19:56

But instead of saying "duh, they suck" what about saying that there are better uses for them. Or give alternatives like "use grotesques or Wracks".

It's not about desperately trying to built that 10 foot pole but to make something different out of it.

Like mentioning the use of them in a non rant manner:
They struggle against flame weapons, against overwatch with a lot of dice. They MIGHT be useful against Hormagaunts storm terminators or thunder wolves. Especially if you give them one agoniser. But that's just theoretical and I don't dare to use them because they are very limited in their use at best.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 20:29

Quote :
But instead of saying "duh, they suck" what about saying that there are better uses for them. Or give alternatives like "use grotesques or Wracks".

Because "they suck" alredy suggests that they... uhm... suck and therefore there are better alternatives. And if you are dead bent on melee units there is nearly not a single unit in the codex that is worse in melee (well except for Hellions maybe). Stay away from them, they are bad already says it all.

Quote :
It's not about desperately trying to built that 10 foot pole but to make something different out of it.

If the task is to build a 10 foot pole you are invited to do something different but you still failed your task. No matter how well your drumsticks may look, this was not the task.

Quote :
Like mentioning the use of them in a non rant manner:
They struggle against flame weapons, against overwatch with a lot of dice. They MIGHT be useful against Hormagaunts storm terminators or thunder wolves. Especially if you give them one agoniser. But that's just theoretical and I don't dare to use them because they are very limited in their use at best.

There are about 10 Threads in here where we discussed this exact thing. The problem with this approach is that it comes down to "there are better units". If you are dead bent on using them anyways feel free, but then you don't need any tactical advise as your decision was set in stone anyways.
Also your "advise" has 3 flaws. First of all nearly nobody uses hormagaunts (for... the same reasons we do not use wyches), second they are NOT useful against Terminators or Wolves. Yes, they got their invul but a god awful Ld. They wil run at the first 2 casualties taking their shiny 4++ with them because you WILL fail armor checks and you wont do much in return. Third the agonizer has AP3 which does not work against Sv2 Terminators and makes no difference for 3++ stormshield Wolves.

I really really really would like them to perform. Their models are gorgeous. But they don't. They just don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 21:44

So people say take another unit giving wracks and grotesques as examples. (So I presume it is understood using Incubi or a HQ for that Job is pointless)

Against the marine equivalent, if you do more wounds they will likely get a chance to flee, auto re-grouping so they can shoot you with no penalties. My point was you can use a cheap wych squad with these so you don't have to worry about them running away and shooting you the same.

Of course this has to be in an ideal situation, but they still have a place (and if you fill up your elites you can't take more alternates from the examples given).

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 22:22

@CptMetal wrote:
But instead of saying "duh, they suck" what about saying that there are better uses for them. Or give alternatives like "use grotesques or Wracks".

That doesn't express what happened to wyches.

You see, about a year and a half ago, a Games Workshop employee who was very much in love with his girlfriend was stunned when she told him that their relationship was through. 'It's not you,' she said, 'it's me. I... I've met someone else.'

'Who is he?' he demanded. 'I'll challenge him to a game of conkers for the honour of your concubinage!'

'Jeesus,' said she, running away as fast as she could.

He did not take it well. That same week he was given the job of updating the Dark Eldar codex for 7th edition. 'We're not really pushing the dark eldar,' said his supervisor, Bob, 'so it's pretty much a copy-paste, but we'd like you to fix wyches up a bit -- they've been pretty crap since we changed to 6th edition. Nothing major, just a points cost reduction, maybe something to help them with overwatch, keep it simple.'

Easy enough, he thought, and set to work. But then he glanced at the studio-painted miniature of a hekatrix on his desk, and it seemed to him that the dark eldar model had the face of his former girlfriend -- which was absurd, as she looked nothing like her, but he was in a funny state of mind, and he found himself talking to it.

'Lower your points cost?' he said to the model. 'Ha! You'd like that, wouldn't you! Use me to get your points cost reduced and then leave me for a footballer! Well, guess what? I'm not falling for it. Ten points it is! And those haywire grenades are mine, you only had the one when you moved in! Oh, do flamers bother you? HA! I'm putting in a note in open-topped transports so that the next time that someone shoots a flamer at you, you will roast. Roast! How does it feel, you heartless strumpet! How does it feel to BURN! HAHA! AHAHAHA! AHAHAoh God, you were my life!'

This was when he realised that everyone else had stopped working and were looking at him with alarmed expressions. 'Uh, are you okay, John?' said Bob.

'Ah,' said John. 'I... I think I need a little nap.'

'Yes, go home. Is the dark eldar codex finished?'

'Yeah, sure, I guess.'

'Brilliant. Mary, could you take it to the printers, please?'

Mary raised an eyebrow. 'Aren't you going to proofread it first?' she asked.

Bob said, 'I would, but I don't like doing any work, and also I don't actually care.'

'Fair enough,' said Mary.

And that's how Codex: Dark Eldar was made. True story. (More or less).
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 22:31

You should put that in the stories and art section. It is beautiful. *tear comes to eye*.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 22:34

No one ever reads what I put there Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 22:38

Quote :
Of course this has to be in an ideal situation, but they still have a place (and if you fill up your elites you can't take more alternates from the examples given).

There are always formations (Grotesqueries for example) and additional CAD.

Quote :
No one ever reads what I put there

Not true Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Thu Nov 05 2015, 22:40

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
But instead of saying "duh, they suck" what about saying that there are better uses for them. Or give alternatives like "use grotesques or Wracks".

That doesn't express what happened to wyches.

You see, about a year and a half ago, a Games Workshop employee who was very much in love with his girlfriend was stunned when she told him that their relationship was through. 'It's not you,' she said, 'it's me. I... I've met someone else.'

'Who is he?' he demanded. 'I'll challenge him to a game of conkers for the honour of your concubinage!'

'Jeesus,' said she, running away as fast as she could.

He did not take it well. That same week he was given the job of updating the Dark Eldar codex for 7th edition. 'We're not really pushing the dark eldar,' said his supervisor, Bob, 'so it's pretty much a copy-paste, but we'd like you to fix wyches up a bit -- they've been pretty crap since we changed to 6th edition. Nothing major, just a points cost reduction, maybe something to help them with overwatch, keep it simple.'

Easy enough, he thought, and set to work. But then he glanced at the studio-painted miniature of a hekatrix on his desk, and it seemed to him that the dark eldar model had the face of his former girlfriend -- which was absurd, as she looked nothing like her, but he was in a funny state of mind, and he found himself talking to it.

'Lower your points cost?' he said to the model. 'Ha! You'd like that, wouldn't you! Use me to get your points cost reduced and then leave me for a footballer! Well, guess what? I'm not falling for it. Ten points it is! And those haywire grenades are mine, you only had the one when you moved in! Oh, do flamers bother you? HA! I'm putting in a note in open-topped transports so that the next time that someone shoots a flamer at you, you will roast. Roast! How does it feel, you heartless strumpet! How does it feel to BURN! HAHA! AHAHAHA! AHAHAoh God, you were my life!'

This was when he realised that everyone else had stopped working and were looking at him with alarmed expressions. 'Uh, are you okay, John?' said Bob.

'Ah,' said John. 'I... I think I need a little nap.'

'Yes, go home. Is the dark eldar codex finished?'

'Yeah, sure, I guess.'

'Brilliant. Mary, could you take it to the printers, please?'

Mary raised an eyebrow. 'Aren't you going to proofread it first?' she asked.

Bob said, 'I would, but I don't like doing any work, and also I don't actually care.'

'Fair enough,' said Mary.

And that's how Codex: Dark Eldar was made. True story. (More or less).

lol!

Hah, that's amazing.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Fri Nov 06 2015, 07:40

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
But instead of saying "duh, they suck" what about saying that there are better uses for them. Or give alternatives like "use grotesques or Wracks".

That doesn't express what happened to wyches.

You see, about a year and a half ago, a Games Workshop employee who was very much in love with his girlfriend was stunned when she told him that their relationship was through. 'It's not you,' she said, 'it's me. I... I've met someone else.'

'Who is he?' he demanded. 'I'll challenge him to a game of conkers for the honour of your concubinage!'

'Jeesus,' said she, running away as fast as she could.

He did not take it well. That same week he was given the job of updating the Dark Eldar codex for 7th edition. 'We're not really pushing the dark eldar,' said his supervisor, Bob, 'so it's pretty much a copy-paste, but we'd like you to fix wyches up a bit -- they've been pretty crap since we changed to 6th edition. Nothing major, just a points cost reduction, maybe something to help them with overwatch, keep it simple.'

Easy enough, he thought, and set to work. But then he glanced at the studio-painted miniature of a hekatrix on his desk, and it seemed to him that the dark eldar model had the face of his former girlfriend -- which was absurd, as she looked nothing like her, but he was in a funny state of mind, and he found himself talking to it.

'Lower your points cost?' he said to the model. 'Ha! You'd like that, wouldn't you! Use me to get your points cost reduced and then leave me for a footballer! Well, guess what? I'm not falling for it. Ten points it is! And those haywire grenades are mine, you only had the one when you moved in! Oh, do flamers bother you? HA! I'm putting in a note in open-topped transports so that the next time that someone shoots a flamer at you, you will roast. Roast! How does it feel, you heartless strumpet! How does it feel to BURN! HAHA! AHAHAHA! AHAHAoh God, you were my life!'

This was when he realised that everyone else had stopped working and were looking at him with alarmed expressions. 'Uh, are you okay, John?' said Bob.

'Ah,' said John. 'I... I think I need a little nap.'

'Yes, go home. Is the dark eldar codex finished?'

'Yeah, sure, I guess.'

'Brilliant. Mary, could you take it to the printers, please?'

Mary raised an eyebrow. 'Aren't you going to proofread it first?' she asked.

Bob said, 'I would, but I don't like doing any work, and also I don't actually care.'

'Fair enough,' said Mary.

And that's how Codex: Dark Eldar was made. True story. (More or less).

lol! brilliant! You just cheered up my morning

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Fri Nov 06 2015, 08:37

Nice work Agatha.. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wyches really dead? -an alternate strategy (revised. Just, Wyches have to work)   Fri Nov 06 2015, 09:00

It's funny cos it's true Sad

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