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 To Aberration or not to Aberration

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Aberration or not
Yes
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 72% [ 18 ]
No
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 28% [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 25
 

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 12:40

Assuming you are taking a Grotesquerie, do you take an Aberration?

The only reason I can see to do so is for 1 extra attack and the availability of the Scissorhand upgrade.

Using averages:
35 points for 6 attacks (2 from Rampage and assuming no charge) with Instant Death on 6's.
55 points for 7 attacks with Rending


20 points to swop ID for Rending and gaining 1 attack (58% price increase for a 16% increase in attack output).
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 13:11

When I need something against high Armour units, I take an agoniser instead. Otherwise I don't bother for the upgrade or only upgrade without anything extra.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 13:44

I always take one if I intend to put a character in the squad (so that it can accept unfavourable challenges). Otherwise, it depends whether or not I have spare points.

I used to always give them scissorhands, but I've all but stopped now.

In theory, I like the idea of an Agoniser, but I just never have the points. I already cut my units to the bone, and it's not uncommon for 25pts being the difference between including an extra unit or not.

Furthermore, I prefer an MSU approach - and Grotesques are already dicey on that front (more so if I put a character with them). So, I'm rather wary of buying a weapon that costs almost as much as another grotesque. Especially such a crap weapon.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 13:58

I get what you are saying. The points keep me from buying the agoniser too. But sometimes, when they are stuck in close combat with a bike squad (happened last game. So frustrating!) I wish I'd taken it.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 14:15

@Hellstrom wrote:
Assuming you are taking a Grotesquerie, do you take an Aberration?

The only reason I can see to do so is for 1 extra attack and the availability of the Scissorhand upgrade.

Using averages:
35 points for 6 attacks (2 from Rampage and assuming no charge) with Instant Death on 6's.
55 points for 7 attacks with Rending


20 points to swop ID for Rending and gaining 1 attack (58% price increase for a 16% increase in attack output).

There goes a bit more for me.

The +1A is a bonus but not the main reason for me to buy the Abberation + Scissors.

1) Challenges.
If you play against an army that actually uses this mechanic you are on the safe side and do not lose attacks (that is if you have an IC attached)

2) Rending
Seems like a small bonus on first glance but can make quite a difference with its attack count.
Sure... i won't pick it into Imperial guard, but against something like White Scars for example it is golden.

3) Igor the Warlord. If you have a Lhamaen as your HQ, somebody has to be the Warlord. Igor the Abberation has T5, 3 wounds and 5+ FnP which is harder to kill as most of our other choices.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 14:19

Igor the warlord. That's actually a really nice idea.

Out of curiosity: do you use a close combat HQ very often? If yes: which one?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 14:22

@CptMetal wrote:
I get what you are saying. The points keep me from buying the agoniser too. But sometimes, when they are stuck in close combat with a bike squad (happened last game. So frustrating!) I wish I'd taken it.

Oh, I know what you mean. Oddly, it's 4+ saves that seem to stymie my Grotesques. My friend's Nobz just don't fail their saves.  Neutral  

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
3) Igor the Warlord.

You can't go wrong with an Igor, thur.  Wink

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Igor the Abberation has T5, 3 wounds and 5+ FnP which is harder to kill as most of our other choices.

I imagine, in most cases, he'll actually be considerably harder to kill. If he's a coven Aberration, he can also have IWND and Eternal Warrior.

EDIT:

@CptMetal wrote:
Out of curiosity: do you use a close combat HQ very often? If yes: which one?

Is this a question to everyone?

If so, I use melee HQs intermittently (unless you count Haemonculi). Partially, it's because I don't like having a list with no HQ characters at all. But also because melee always feels more... involving, for lack of a better word, than just sitting back and shooting. So, I find myself constantly trying to eke something useful out of our god-awful HQs. In terms of the builds I usually use:

- Coven Haemonculus w/ Scissorhands and Sindriq's Sump (maybe something else if I feel like wasting some more points). I mention him only because he's invariably accompanying some sort of melee unit - Grots, Incubi or somesuch. His job is to hand out some pitiful buffs and desperately pretend he's actually worth his cost. He does this by failing every FNP roll he's required to make, and follows up by missing with 3 out of every 4 attacks (even when hitting on 3s).

- Succubus w/ Glaive (maybe something else if I'm feeling optimistic... so nothing else then). Her job is to accompany some Grots, whilst attempting to miss even more than the aforementioned Haemonculus.

- Archon w/ Huskblade, Soul Trap, Parasite's Kiss, and either Clone Field or Shadowfield (the latter if I'm feeling really generous... good luck with that). His job is to look out onto a field of 2+ armour saves and cry himself to sleep - hoping that this is all a dream and when he wakes up his Huskblade will be AP2 and his wardrobe will once again be full of wargear. Sleep well, my Archon, and dream of better times.


Frankly, I'm looking forward to Corsairs, and being able to replace all three of the useless sods.
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 15:53

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@Hellstrom wrote:
Assuming you are taking a Grotesquerie, do you take an Aberration?

The only reason I can see to do so is for 1 extra attack and the availability of the Scissorhand upgrade.

Using averages:
35 points for 6 attacks (2 from Rampage and assuming no charge) with Instant Death on 6's.
55 points for 7 attacks with Rending


20 points to swop ID for Rending and gaining 1 attack (58% price increase for a 16% increase in attack output).

There goes a bit more for me.

The +1A is a bonus but not the main reason for me to buy the Abberation + Scissors.

1) Challenges.
If you play against an army that actually uses this mechanic you are on the safe side and do not lose attacks (that is if you have an IC attached)

2) Rending
Seems like a small bonus on first glance but can make quite a difference with its attack count.
Sure... i won't pick it into Imperial guard, but against something like White Scars for example it is golden.

3) Igor the Warlord. If you have a Lhamaen as your HQ, somebody has to be the Warlord. Igor the Abberation has T5, 3 wounds and 5+ FnP which is harder to kill as most of our other choices.


1) I don't use IC attached.  Fearless on T2 ... why waste more points?

2) If you are really lucky, you might roll a single 6.  Hardly gonna tear up MEQ.

3) Agree with this, but to be fair, I'd rather take NO chars at all and just assign my Lhamaen as Warlord and hide him the entire game. I like making a Razorwing my Warlord, really pisses people off Very Happy.  Stupid mechanic anyway.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 15:55

Do you mean that 'Warlord' is a stupid mechanic?
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 16:19

Quote :
Out of curiosity: do you use a close combat HQ very often? If yes: which one?

Not really. The Haemi in the Dark Artisan does not qualify as an CC HQ. Sometimes I do use a Succubus to give the Grots a bit more punch while giving them a Leadership boost.

Quote :
1) I don't use IC attached. Fearless on T2 ... why waste more points?

Because not everyone plays coven

Quote :
2) If you are really lucky, you might roll a single 6. Hardly gonna tear up MEQ.

That single 6 will however inflict as much damage as 3 regular wounds against MEQ. And if you hit the "right" target you basically get your points back with your first "6"

Quote :
3) Agree with this, but to be fair, I'd rather take NO chars at all and just assign my Lhamaen as Warlord and hide him the entire game. I like making a Razorwing my Warlord, really pisses people off Very Happy. Stupid mechanic anyway.

The first one does not receive any Warlord traits (as it is no character), the Razorwing is outright illegal.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 16:24

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
the Razorwing is outright illegal.

Nope.

If there are no characters in your army then you can pick any model to be your warlord.

Any. Model.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 16:32

@The Shredder wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
the Razorwing is outright illegal.

Nope.

If there are no characters in your army then you can pick any model to be your warlord.

Any. Model.

He's correct in the fact that you don't get a trait though. Not that ever really affects the game for me.

The "illegal Razorwing" is the reason it annoys people. People don't read rules properly and don't like being shown that they are incorrect Wink Plonk a NightShield on it and off you go.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 16:37

Interesting. I stand corrected. I guess that is a subtle change from 6th as I am sure we look that up in the past at one point and it said non-vehicle.
Quote :

Not that ever really affects the game for me.

Don't know... tactics has worked quite solid for me - that is if you play Maelstrom
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 19:18

I avoid it at every opportunity. I only play it if forced by my opponent to roll for Maelstrom or Eternal War.
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@miral
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 20:02

Strategioc traits are worth a warlord in my opinion - stealth and move through ruins as well as infiltrating taloi or nightfight.

I did put a Succubus in my Grots as warlord for a three game tournament and from now on will always take an aberration. Simply for challenges. All kind of Necron and Space marine insta kill her. Gladly, most opponents did not realize how easy a warlord kill could have been achieved.
One turn she killed 5 Grey knight Termies in one turn by the way while the 7 Grots killed one Smile
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 20:11

When I take Grots I tend to take the Grotesquery as I love their combat drugs and power from pain table.

I almost always take an aberration I one unit of grots. Usually with an agoniser. Sometimes a scissor hand.

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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 20:22

Did a bit of Mathhammer; I've been wondering the same thing. Someone correct me if I messed it up somewhere. I'll be comparing a Grotesque (35pts), an Aberration with Scissorhand (55pts), and an Aberration with Agonizer (70pts). For this scenario, we're on the charge against MEQ and outnumbered, getting an average +2 attacks from Rampage. Results will vary dramatically based on what you're fighting, of course.

Regular Grotesque:
7 attacks
7/2 hits
3 wounds
1 death

Aberration with Scissorhand:
8 attacks
4 hits
8/3 regular wounds and 8/9 rends
16/9 deaths

Aberration with Agonizer:
8 attacks
4 hits
32/9 wounds at AP3
32/9 deaths

So, on average, to kill a single Marine, that's 35pts of regular grotesques, 30.9375pts of Scissorhand Aberrations, or 19.6875pts of Agonizer Aberrations.

Analysis: in terms of raw killing power, Aberrations are definitely worth it. However, there's an unquantifiable element at work here too: points that go into the Aberration and their upgrades don't give your squad any added survivability. The 35pts you spend getting an Agonizer Aberrations could instead get your squad 3 more wounds. Finally, with weapon choice: the Agonizer will suffer dramatically against invulnerable saves or 2+ armor, while regular Grots don't care as much and the Scissorhand only cares when it comes to its Rending. On the other hand, Agonizer is incredibly fearsome in challenges, inflicting over 3 AP3 wounds on average on the charge. And the Scissorhand lets you potentially kill a Walker rather than simply get tarpitted by one the entire game. And of course, regular grotesques have a huge advantage with their ID against multiwound models like Crisis Suits.

Conclusion: no idea. I've always been running without Aberrations but I'm thinking I'll give them a shot next game. The Scissorhand upgrade doesn't seem terribly impressive to me though, other than letting you fight walkers it doesn't give so much more killing ability that I wouldn't rather just squeeze in an entire extra Grotesque or put the points elsewhere. Probably wouldn't put Scissorhand in a TAC list for that reason, but I'm curious if you guys draw different conclusions.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 21:17

The thing with the aberration is that you can keeps it flesh gauntlet and have a agoniser as well. You just exchange the agoniser for the aberrations close combat weapon. I love doing that

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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Thu Nov 05 2015, 21:52

I run the scissorhand more to help out with hitting vehicles than for dealing with 3+ saves. It also lets them clear combats against 2+ saves that would take them forever to fight out of normally and turns it into a couple of turns.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Fri Nov 06 2015, 14:38

@MHaruspex wrote:
Did a bit of Mathhammer; I've been wondering the same thing. Someone correct me if I messed it up somewhere. I'll be comparing a Grotesque (35pts), an Aberration with Scissorhand (55pts), and an Aberration with Agonizer (70pts). For this scenario, we're on the charge against MEQ and outnumbered, getting an average +2 attacks from Rampage. Results will vary dramatically based on what you're fighting, of course.

Regular Grotesque:
7 attacks
7/2 hits
3 wounds
1 death

Aberration with Scissorhand:
8 attacks
4 hits
8/3 regular wounds and 8/9 rends
16/9 deaths

Aberration with Agonizer:
8 attacks
4 hits
32/9 wounds at AP3
32/9 deaths

So, on average, to kill a single Marine, that's 35pts of regular grotesques, 30.9375pts of Scissorhand Aberrations, or 19.6875pts of Agonizer Aberrations.

Analysis: in terms of raw killing power, Aberrations are definitely worth it. However, there's an unquantifiable element at work here too: points that go into the Aberration and their upgrades don't give your squad any added survivability. The 35pts you spend getting an Agonizer Aberrations could instead get your squad 3 more wounds. Finally, with weapon choice: the Agonizer will suffer dramatically against invulnerable saves or 2+ armor, while regular Grots don't care as much and the Scissorhand only cares when it comes to its Rending. On the other hand, Agonizer is incredibly fearsome in challenges, inflicting over 3 AP3 wounds on average on the charge. And the Scissorhand lets you potentially kill a Walker rather than simply get tarpitted by one the entire game. And of course, regular grotesques have a huge advantage with their ID against multiwound models like Crisis Suits.

Conclusion: no idea. I've always been running without Aberrations but I'm thinking I'll give them a shot next game. The Scissorhand upgrade doesn't seem terribly impressive to me though, other than letting you fight walkers it doesn't give so much more killing ability that I wouldn't rather just squeeze in an entire extra Grotesque or put the points elsewhere. Probably wouldn't put Scissorhand in a TAC list for that reason, but I'm curious if you guys draw different conclusions.

I'm afraid I don't understand your fractions Sad

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Against MEQ:

So, using your +2 for rampage and +1 for charge:

Average number of Unsaved Wounds:
Regular Grot (35pts): 1.04
Aberration with Scissor (55pts): 1.78

That's 33.65 points per wound for a regular Grot and 30.90 points per wound for a Aberration.


Now, actually using a fight where you aren't charging and you aren't outnumbered, which is far more common.

Average number of Unsaved Wounds:
Regular Grot (35pts): 0.59
Aberration with Scissor (55pts): 1.11

That's 59.32 points per wound for a regular Grot and 49.55 points per wound for a Aberration.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Against GEQ:

Using +2 for rampage and +1 for charge:

Average number of Unsaved Wounds:
Regular Grot (35pts): 2.27
Aberration with Scissor (55pts): 3.13

That's 15.42 points per wound for a regular Grot and 17.57 points per wound for a Aberration.


Now, actually using a fight where you aren't charging and you aren't outnumbered, which is far more common.

Average number of Unsaved Wounds:
Regular Grot (35pts): 1.3
Aberration with Scissor (55pts): 1.95

That's 26.92 points per wound for a regular Grot and 28.21 points per wound for a Aberration.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

My conclusion from this is it's obviously dependant who you are fighting (as always), but actually there isn't a huge amount in it. Statistically I guess you could say the Aberration is possibly more efficient as an attacking force on average, but you are giving away defence (wounds) to gain this.

An Agoniser is obviously perfect for Marines with 3+ armour, but statistically worse against every other kind of save, so unless ONLY fighting Marines, it's not even a choice imo.


Just as a final though, I don't think Grotesques should be targeting 2+ armour save models at all.  It just takes too long to kill them and we have a massive array of AP2 shooting weapons anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Sat Nov 07 2015, 12:48

It depends, personally as I play for objectives and board control extra bodies are more important for me.

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PostSubject: Re: To Aberration or not to Aberration    Fri Nov 13 2015, 12:42

I'd like to include an Aberration one day but never find the points for it. Like others have already said - for those points you can get some cool other stuff at times, more bodies for example.

To be honest what with how fragile we are, even Coven units compared to other army elites, putting more points into those fragile unit seems like a waste oftentimes.

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