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 Reavers... good against new tau?

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 10:58

With realspace raiders det or double CAD you can field a load of MSU reavers, ie...

3 reavers plus caltrops and/or a cheap blaster or heatlance if you feel like it for 63-73pts.

Do you think a bunch of these units, say 4-6 would do well vs new tau?

They are cheapish, super fast, add MSU, can hide easily thanx to their small footprint, can move shoot move, win the obj game, can be in cc in 2 turns, can tear most tau units a new one, hit and run etc... we all know they have many uses.

So while the rest of your army is drawing attention, shooting and getting shot, these dudes can sneaky-stealth in for the kill/win the game on objs.

I know SMS can paste them but these weapons cant be everywhere at once especially if the tau are desperately trying to kill something tough in their face like grots or a DA.

Any thoughts?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 11:07

My concern would be that ignores cover murders them. And if the new Hunter Contingent works the way the rules say it does then they don't even need markerlights to get it. You'll just have single crisis suits with dual missile pods firing 4 shots, hitting on 2+ (re-rollable) wounding on 2+ and no armour or cover saves. That single suit kills off one unit of Reavers on it's own!

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 11:16

Yeah I get that.

But as they are such small, fast units that can hide so easily and they are in multiples and he has the rest of your army demanding attention. My thinking was that most of these unit would get through.

Could be wrong tho. Neutral
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 11:20

It's possible they may help and MSU is definitely the way to go.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 11:23

Two major concerns are first that Ignores Cover will absolute slaughter the Reavers, and to use Cluster Caltrops they need to get into combat, and Tau Overwatch is, well, Tau Overwatch.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 11:32

Anything that ignores cover pastes them. I know, I said it already, I know.

But if you aren't hiding them you are playing them wrong or are fighting on planet bowling ball.

As they are relatively cheap and very fast they are great for tanking overwatch for the other reaver units or whatever other cc units you have like grots for example.

Thanx guys
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 11:41

If you have sufficient LOS blocking terrain to hide 6 Reaver units within charge range of the enemy then you're playing on some very different tables to me!!

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 12:01

Your right I would be very lucky to hide that many units within charge range.

I could hide maybe 2-3 units within charge range, the rest would be hiding next to obj across the table or backing up my grots or DA thats waiting to charge next turn or providing target saturation with the rest of my army.

I still think a few units should get through and as tau crumble pretty quick when in cc that could be enough. Ill try it out.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 13:10

Quote :
I still think a few units should get through and as tau crumble pretty quick when in cc that could be enough.

Individual units do crubmble pretty quick, which is a disadvantage. You want to only win on his turn so you do not get obliterated by his firepower after you killed a single unit.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 13:15

My tables are terrain heavy, but still lack the ability to completely hide reaver units. The models take up a lot of room, and you can always see a couple bits here or there.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 14:17

What about overwatch? I know some (possibly even all) Tau stuff now gets to overwatch within 12" of a Tau unit that gets charged.

So, even if you could get a 3-man unit of Reavers close enough to charge, there's a pretty good chance they'll die or be severely depleted on the way in.

Furthermore, Tau don't just crumple in combat. Stuff like Stealth Suits and Crisis Suits are pretty durable with 3+ saves and T4 on the latter (which matter a lot, since we're really relying on Caltrops to do the heavy lifting in combat). They also hit back a lot harder than people seem to realise. I mean, they might have poor WS, but Stealth Suits still have 2 S4 attacks each, and Crisis Suits are S5. Even stuff like Fire Warriors are probably capable of dragging down a bike.

It might be worth a try, but I don't think it will go well. I mean, your bikes have to survive:
- At least one full Tau shooting phase (probably two), with all their buffs and Ignores Cover weapons.
- A further shooting phase when you actually want to charge something, and have to suffer through the overwatch of not only that unit but any other units in the vicinity - potentially including more Ignores Cover, markerlights etc.
- The return attacks from the Tau unit you charged which, as above, are actually quite threatening to our fragile units.

And, all this with 3-man squads. I can't see it working well.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 14:29

What would you do?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 14:41

Hmm.

Would some Coven stuff help - like Dark Artisan and Grotesquerie? They're pretty resilient (though I haven't had enough experience with the new Tau to properly gauge their firepower, so perhaps not resilient enough), and should be able to beat just about any Tau units in combat. Whatever you use, I think you'd definitely want to make good use of multi-charges. I mean, everything will be overwatching you anyway, so it's not like you've got much to lose. Razz

Obviously the concern with the Grotesques is that the Tau could easily shoot down their transports and strand them.


In terms of non-coven DE, I'm not sure. I think MSU is a given, but I think you'd have to focus your entire list on either staying away or getting close.

How good are their ranges? I mean, could a venom-spam list potentially out-shoot them by staying at the very limit of their range?

Otherwise, some medusae in venoms/raiders deep-striking nearby might help against some of their stealth stuff.

If you really want to tailor against them, you could always use two Archons - one with WWP and Armour of Misery, and another with Archangel of Pain - both in a venom/raider that deep strikes into the centre of their lines. Combine that with a lot of Soulfright weapons and you should be able to really ruin their day.

Of course, that sort of list would be useless against marines and such. But, if you feel like really tailoring against Tau, the option is there. Wink
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 14:47

Yeah, a freakshow list could be an absolute blast against Tau.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 18:58

I have several Tau players in my group ready to get revenge against my Reaver spam list. Just theory at this point but my plan is

- ally in an Autarch on bike with a Banshee Mask to negate overwatch
- Use the unit to multi charge several units
- Follow up with my 2 other Reavers to charge the units already charged

I expect to win combat which will possibly leave in the open, so still thinking this through

Both Freakshow Ld tricks and Harlequin Psychic powers are effective against Tau
Even their new Gargantuan Creature suit is only Ld 9. A Mask of secrets + Freakish spectacle plus any Ld based attacks will ruin their day.

Hard part as they will know that and bubble wrap those units with too much stuff to get close
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 18:59

@Render Noir wrote:
I have several Tau players in my group ready to get revenge against my Reaver spam list. Just theory at this point but my plan is

- ally in an Autarch on bike with a Banshee Mask to negate overwatch

Well, if we're adding in Eldar then we're golden.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 20:46

Thanx for the tips Render Noir

A jetbike autarch with banshee mask is a must even if just for the reserve manipulation. I think reserves might be a good plan tho i'll have to watch out for EWO.

A unit of scat bikes and some warp spiders couldn't hurt either. The rest of the list will be 5 MSU reavers units, razorwing, venom spam, ravagers and a grot bomb with archangel of pain.

The reavers are unlikely to get shot on the way in as they fast and small enough to be hidden easily. I also don't mind one unit taking the overwatch as I plan to be charging with many units in the same turn. That's what their there for.

Wiping one squad and then being stuck in the open is a risk but if I can get multiple assaults going on a flank it might be ok.

Either way its a lot of MSU and shooting from the rest of the army.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Tue Nov 03 2015, 21:53

Against even a half-competent Tau player, your reaver unit will never make it to combat alive. Apart from Mandrakes, Reavers are probably the WORST unit against tau.
Correction, they are a great unit against them, but they will never live long enough to be used.

Msu Vehicle rush is your best option.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Wed Nov 04 2015, 07:05

So not a good idea then...

That's cool.

MSU vehicle rush is cool I agree. Anything that can kill 3 reavers will most likely be able to kill 1 of our skimmers also. So no matter what it is if its visible it's probably dead. I will still take lots of skimmers in my MSU reavers army.

I have heaps of exp using reavers. My usual pick up game (not tournament) army has 18 of them. 3x6 with CCs. I play against some nasty lists with massive shooting and I still love them and my opponents hate them. They usually pick up more maelstrom pts than the rest of my army put together.

My thinking was... I'm used to units of 6 so units of 3 should be easier for me to hide and there's more of them. Also tau are often (mostly) static so beating him on maelstrom pts would be the way to go.

Anyway its all theory but I think I can make them work. Hopefully Ill get a game against the local tau guys soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Wed Nov 04 2015, 23:09

Well, I run my Reavers in units of 6 with Caltrops, and in units of 3 with a Blaster. Venom spam is great too. Drop in a Scalpel Squadron and target his markerlights.

I have a game coming up versus Tau, 1850pts. I am running Reavers and Venoms around a Scarlet Epicureans formation, but I will screen the SE with a big unit of Wyches. RSR gives the Wyches a 5+ cover save (4+ with Night Fighting, but Tau Blacksun Filters), stick the SE Haemy (WL) in there, along with a Succubus with Armor of Misery. Haemy lets the Wyches treat PFP as 1 turn higher, so FNP(6+), and Fearless. The Cronos will bump that up to standard FNP. The theory is that the Wyches draw as much fire as possible. The Master Epicurean WL trait will net me d3 VP, and the rest of my army capitalizes upon the monumental distraction.

Tau have S5 basic infantry weapons. Almost all their battlesuits sport S6 or more, AP2 or 1 weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Thu Nov 05 2015, 05:10

Here's so much negativity that one could think that we can't win against Tau.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Thu Nov 05 2015, 06:57

It was hard before (like very hard) and it has just gotten a lot harder. So pretty much yes, you wont win against a equally competent player.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Thu Nov 05 2015, 10:51

I don't personally think it got a lot harder, but I haven't gotten to play many games against them yet. It has changed which units I'd like to use against them and what approaches I'd take.

One other strategy that will be better against them than it was before is loading up cc units in raiders and boosting across the table in their face. If they're firing all their units at the same time to maximize benefits of shared rules, that means they'll be able to smoke the transports but not the passengers inside. I find Grotesque do a great job against Tau especially if it's the kind of player who likes to run several riptides. Riptides really struggle to do more than a couple wounds to grotesque per turn.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Thu Nov 05 2015, 11:43

Quote :
If they're firing all their units at the same time to maximize benefits of shared rules, that means they'll be able to smoke the transports but not the passengers inside.

The problem is not the combined fire as this is just trouble for deathstar units we don't have anyways. MAybe they would use it to dust a CTC in one turn but overall they do not need it. There are plents S5/6 weapons around to pop vehicles.
The Stormsurge alone can pop 3+ different vehicles without even unsing markerlights or his double fire mode. And that is just 360 points you likely wont remove at all.

Add in their formation that has 2 of them and prevents you from running/moving flat out if you have been shot by one of their weapons (remember SMS ignore not only cover but also line of sight) and suddenly you are crawling...
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers... good against new tau?   Thu Nov 05 2015, 12:08

Deep Strike into their face. Medusa, scalpel and similar things.
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