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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Fri Oct 30 2015, 15:32

This is a relatively unused portion of the board, and I don't know if anyone will ever even see this, which might be good considering how some of these recent threads have gone but here goes:

I've noticed virtually everyone wants to change our codex in part, and in most cases considerably.  These threads quickly turn into a giant list of demands with little explanation or overall planning.  With the new corsairs book weeks away, and the dark kin looking more and more pointless, I'm interested in what people would really like to see changed when (and if) they get broken down and rebuilt.

So ya - in 3 simple changes (or less), lay out how you would make the entire codex competitive again.  Obviously you won't be able to fix every unit, and we don't need every detail like stats or cost.  Just give me an idea of what YOUR dark eldar's theme and design strategy would look like if you had the chance.

I'll go first, my design strategy is ambush tactics and further unit specialization with a bit of (craftworld-esque) speed thrown in.

1)  Dark Eldar wide special rule, Battle frenzy - Any unit with this rule may either charge, or fire snap shots after making a run move.

2)  Kabalites (and by extension trueborn) gain defensive grenades, and the ability to fire overwatch at full ballistic skill (+2 points/model)

3)  Wyches (and blood brides by extension) gain the skill Skirmish : This skill includes the hit and run ability, but also prevents any model not actually facing the charging wyches from firing overwatch.  Single models facing the charge may fire, and focus fire rules apply if only some models are within the firer's facing. (+2 points/model)

So the strategy is clear.  Kabalites become much better ranged ambush units.  Basically they stand and fire in cover or move fast firing snap shots.  Their damage will still not be great, but the risk of charging them becomes a real deterrent, and even firing back has it's draw backs (see wyches).  As a bonus they gain the ability to blind units at range.

Wyches will use these kabalites as a distraction and charge into the flank or rear, while the enemy is returning fire and using their new rule to negate over watch.  Hit and run isn't necessary, just a bit of fluffy fun I feel fits wyches well. It could go a long way in improving the synergy between wyches and other units though.


Last edited by stilgar27 on Fri Oct 30 2015, 18:33; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typo'd, then made minor revisions)
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Fri Oct 30 2015, 16:11

3 changes or less.
Interesting.

Ok.

1/ Change Power From Pain into a points based mechanic similar to Blood Tithe. List of upgrades very much like the existing one, rules still army-wide, but instead of going up based on turn number it goes up based on fulfilling criteria (killing units, losi9ng units, something like that).

2/ Fix Wyches. Very simple, grenades and options for decent combat weapons. Rending alone would do it.

3/ A good collection of non-Coven Formations including Reaver forces (with Reaver Archons).
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Fri Oct 30 2015, 16:56

1. New Dark Eldar Special Rule: 'Pointy Shoes'. When one of your units from Codex: Dark Eldar is targeted by a weapon with the 'Ignores Cover' special rule, but before any rolls are made, you may kick your opponent in the shins until they take it back and do something else instead. Actually wearing pointy shoes is not mandatory.

2. New Archon, Succubus, and Haemonculus ability: 'Arbiter of Discipline'. After both armies have set up, but before the game begins, you may remove any of your opponent's Gargantuan Creatures, Super-Heavy Vehicles, and similar models from the game and lock them in the cupboard, then send your opponent to their room without supper to think long and hard about what they've done. You may return their models to them after the game, if you think they are sufficiently contrite.

3. Secretly replace the 7th edition WH40K rules with the 5th edition ones. See if anyone notices!

That ought to fix it! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Fri Oct 30 2015, 17:03

I like that concept. Here's mine:

1 make soulfright and archangel work against fearless and ATSKNF. Fearless -2 and ATSKNF -1 modification.

2 give us the option to buy our witches rending weapons. Maybe +1 point.

3 make three power from Pain mechanic similar to the blood tithe rule.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Fri Oct 30 2015, 17:25

1. Shred Current Dex.

2. Get black Magic Marker

3. Cross out "Craftworlds" and write "dark" above "Eldar" with marker on the Eldar dex.

Tada

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Fri Oct 30 2015, 18:00

@Barking Agatha wrote:
1. New Dark Eldar Special Rule: 'Pointy Shoes'. When one of your units from Codex: Dark Eldar is targeted by a weapon with the 'Ignores Cover' special rule, but before any rolls are made, you may kick your opponent in the shins until they take it back and do something else instead. Actually wearing pointy shoes is not mandatory.

This reminds me of our old "cheese toss" house rule where if you killed something with a particularly cheesy unit, your opponent could then throw his model at you when removing it from the table.  The older players came up with this idea since we had pretty much all metal models, and were playing against newer plastic cheese lists (necrons, tau).

There was a risk involved however, as the target of the cheese toss could keep (IRL) any models he caught.  This lead to anyone actually willing to do this to aim low, which kept injuries down to paintball level leg bruises, while still deterring cheese.
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average joe
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Fri Oct 30 2015, 21:52

1. A webway portal rule that functions in a similar vein as the space marine drop pod assault rule. Each webway portal would cost 75 points and would inflict a -1 modifier across all stat lines to (non-flying) enemy models within 8 inches. Any (non-flying) Eldar model held in reserve may deploy through any webway portal. In addition any Eldar (non-flying) model may return to reserves through any webway portal.
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daveyo
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Fri Oct 30 2015, 22:10

I like the Web way drop pods average Joe.

In 3 changes...

Some great cult formations
A more effective RSR detachment
A more enjoyable pfp system

I did all the above in my fandex in the discussion forum.


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average joe
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Sat Oct 31 2015, 21:02

@ daveyo
Thank you. I've been thinking a lot of how to approximate some of the DOW Dark Eldar effects for the table top.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Sun Nov 01 2015, 11:29

You know what, I want to change mine.
I don't REALLY care about Wyches. I never used them anyway, even when they were good.

So for number 2, I'd replace it with:
"Bring back the 3rd edition Capturing Prisoners rule. Dark Eldar score one additional Victory Point each time they kill an enemy unit with a sweeping advance."
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Sun Nov 01 2015, 13:47

@Squidmaster wrote:
You know what, I want to change mine.
I don't REALLY care about Wyches. I never used them anyway, even when they were good.

I wouldn't care about wyches either IF we had another viable troop choice.  Hellions which are at least self sufficient, and wracks who are durable, are both gone from the troop section.  Wyches are pretty much dead the minute they hit rapid fire range.  So we are left with Kabalites who (I know I'm stepping on a lot of toes here) simply aren't very useful for their cost.

I get that venoms and raiders are as much our troops as wyches; more so really.  I just think we need better actual troops, and that this is a fundamental flaw in the book.

@Squidmaster wrote:
So for number 2, I'd replace it with:
"Bring back the 3rd edition Capturing Prisoners rule. Dark Eldar score one additional Victory Point each time they kill an enemy unit with a sweeping advance."

You know that's a very interesting point.  The Dark kin just don't care about whatever 99% of the universe is so desperately clamoring for.  We (should) play by our own rules.

I'll admit they did touch on it in the covens book (with master epicurion warlord trait, as well as corpsethief claw and scalpel special rules), but it wouldn't be hard to elaborate on the idea to include every unit and thereby make the "power level" of the army much less important.
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Sun Nov 01 2015, 14:30

I don't think we NEED another viable Troops choice. Look at Necrons. They have ONE choice too.
But 40k has changed. Its about Detachments and Formations now which may not NEED Troops choices. So if my third wish were resolved, we'd get Detachments and Formations like other armies, and having to look at viable Troops choices wouldn't be an issue anymore.
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drdoom222222
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Mon Nov 02 2015, 15:42

Although I think the codex needs way more changes than 3, if someone put a gun to my head and asked me to pick 3, these would be my 3. -


this rule is to kinda make's up for the fact that the DE are meant to fast/ambushy etc.

1. Masters of the Webway - If your army consists entirely of units from the DE faction then you may use this rule - All units that can deep strike do so without scattering and can make reserve rolls from turn 1.

Poison is one of our tricks, lets make it better and make sense (in hth im gonna shoot you in the face!)
2. Choose your Poison - All models armed with poisoned ranged weapons may use them in cc for a 4+ poison attacks.

Because we are pure evil!!Very Happy

3. The Power of unreasonable Hate (Haters are gonna hate) - All models with DE faction Hate everybody. If Hatred is rolled in warlord trait table counts as hatred every turn not just the first.

Themed, appropriate and would improve codex (although in its current state that wouldn't be hard. ;D)
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Tue Nov 10 2015, 13:47

1: Rework power from pain to something akin to blood-tithe.

2: ways of disrupting overwatch for chargers, possibly torment granade launchers?

3: more HQ variety (squishy melee guy in transport or squishy guy with a blaster in transport seems very boring and limited... urien has some interesting support, but he is way too expensive and still squishy for what he brings)
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Fri Nov 13 2015, 04:37

@carnosaur93 wrote:
1: Rework power from pain to something akin to blood-tithe.

2: ways of disrupting overwatch for chargers, possibly torment granade launchers?

Probably the two most common requests from what I've seen.  If the torment launcher had pinning instead of it's current silly rule, it'd at least be able to disrupt overwatch on a failed leadership test.  It would make some fluff-sense as well.

@carnosaur93 wrote:

3: more HQ variety (squishy melee guy in transport or squishy guy with a blaster in transport seems very boring and limited... urien has some interesting support, but he is way too expensive and still squishy for what he brings)

Before the 7th edition codex came out there was a published rumor that we were getting a "character that looked like Bane from the latest batman movie".  This, of course turned out to be total bunk Suspect as the GW rep who leaked it apparently did not have the same definition of "character" as the rest of us, and had simply never seen a grotesque before.

Lousy jerks had my hopes up too, right until I finished flipping through the book.
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Fri Nov 13 2015, 04:52

1 - Haywires for Wyches. I bought like 5 boxes before the new dex. UGH

2 - Better demi-klaives.

3 - If you bring Drazhar make Incubi a troop choice (Meh), if you bring a haemonculus or Urien make Wracks a troop choice, if you bring Lelith or a Succubus make Wyches cost 1 less a model. If you bring an archon make trueborn a troop choice or make kabalites cost 1 less a model.

Just an idea. The third one just, just please give one.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Sun Nov 15 2015, 00:42

@Lord_Alino wrote:
if you bring a haemonculus or Urien make Wracks a troop choice, if you bring Lelith or a Succubus make Wyches cost 1 less a model. If you bring an archon make trueborn a troop choice or make kabalites cost 1 less a model.
.

It's funny that bloodbrides are so bad that we literally forget they exist.  I do like the idea of making wracks troops again, but I figure if they dis-allowed it while simultaneously releasing the new plastics, they aren't ever going to bring that back.

I personally think trueborn and bloodbrides should remain troops even if upgraded, if only to flesh out the idea that we are actually an elite army, and not just shlubs with useful transports (also known as guardsmen). Unfortunately this is how I pretty much see kabalites.

Not to compare to craftworlders again, but dire avengers are troops even though they are basically just elite guardians.
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Sun Nov 15 2015, 10:21

- Make Wyches good: Expand their dodge to the whole fighting phase and when emergency embarking from transports. Also, give them an executing strike rule that is like rending but does not work on vehicles. I would be willing to accept a small point increase for that.
The only logical consequence of this is that this affects Bloodbrides as well.

- A new anti vehicle heavy weapon similar to Eldar Scatter-Lasers. Can be applied to any unit which can be equipped with Dark Lances.

- A good collection of non-covenite formations that reflects the fluff. Seriously, it's not hard to imagine how many cool formations would be possible when you read the fluff. Especially the Flayed Skull, the Thirteenth Whispers and the Kabal of the Storm’s Spite would make some very potent detachments.

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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Mon Nov 16 2015, 05:00

1. wyches/wracks get rending

2. Hellions get JINK and skilled rider

3. Realspace raiders Detachment - Change Hunt From the Shadows to the following - Reserve rolls for any units in this formation can start rolling on turn one for any unit in Deepstrike reserve. In addition all units that arrive from deepstrike reserve have shrouded special rule for the turn they arrive from deepstrike.

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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Sun Nov 22 2015, 08:45

Per other threads;

1. purchasable drugs for any/all models in army.

2. double the number of purchasable special weapons per squad i.e. 4 blasters per 10 warrirors, 8 weapons per 10 scourges, 2 per 3 reavers. Review special weapons costs downwards.

3. Reintroduce more heroes that change how the army functions eg the Duke changing all trueborn and scourge poison to 3+ or Drazhar boosting Incubus unit speed by 1" in all phases.
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Mon Jan 04 2016, 23:14

@stilgar27 wrote:
I'll go first, my design strategy is ambush tactics and further unit specialization with a bit of (craftworld-esque) speed thrown in.

1)  Dark Eldar wide special rule, Battle frenzy - Any unit with this rule may either charge, or fire snap shots after making a run move.

2)  Kabalites (and by extension trueborn) gain defensive grenades, and the ability to fire overwatch at full ballistic skill (+2 points/model)

3)  Wyches (and blood brides by extension) gain the skill Skirmish : This skill includes the hit and run ability, but also prevents any model not actually facing the charging wyches from firing overwatch.  Single models facing the charge may fire, and focus fire rules apply if only some models are within the firer's facing. (+2 points/model)

So the strategy is clear.  Kabalites become much better ranged ambush units.  Basically they stand and fire in cover or move fast firing snap shots.  Their damage will still not be great, but the risk of charging them becomes a real deterrent, and even firing back has it's draw backs (see wyches).  As a bonus they gain the ability to blind units at range.

Wyches will use these kabalites as a distraction and charge into the flank or rear, while the enemy is returning fire and using their new rule to negate over watch.  Hit and run isn't necessary, just a bit of fluffy fun I feel fits wyches well.  It could go a long way in improving the synergy between wyches and other units though.

I like these, the strategy is clear and apt. Personally I'd like to see some kind of arc of fire concept introduced to the game in general, even if just for overwatch - it bugs the hell out of me that I can sneak up on a unit and jump it from behind, only to eat overwatch in the face. It's especially annoying against heavy weapons, that shouldn't be able to pivot that quickly, but I digress.

In fixing our book with three changes I'll punt that to the rulebook bin and propose:

1. Upgraded Aerial Assault rule for all vehicles: Move 12" and still embark/disembark, allow the vehicle to fire all weapons at full BS, allow troops on board to fire at full BS. Suddenly we are fast again.

2. Open up wargear selection. Remove ridiculous footnotes and give everyone access to all special and heavy weapons. Kabalites get more versatile with heat lances and haywire, reavers get the option for shredders or splinter cannon for pre assault softening up, Wych hekatrices can get venom blades, all squad leaders can get haywire or plasma. I'd like Kabalites to get grenade options too, does this still count as one change? Razz

3. Remodel Power from Pain so that murdering models provides benefits to those nearby, and so that the pain fades from turn to turn, necessitating constant topping up. So, combat troops buff their support squads with their prowess, and become stronger after the initial charge. Equally, a squad of Kabalites that shoots an enemy and kills a few provides bonuses to the Wyches that are positioned to assault. As turns go by and the amount of pain ebbs, the Dark Eldar player is incentivised to do more murdering - possibly making tactically inadvisable decisions such as leaving objectives to keep the pain tally high, so that units gain power. I concede the details of this one might be tricky!

Taken together, this would make our units more versatile, faster, and able to support each other to the point of interdependence. This encourages the army to quickly redeploy to target weak areas of the enemy's line with overwhelming strength, in the process becoming more powerful - a cross between a wolf pack and a vampire. That's what I want to feel when I play the True Kin. (It would also mean that our army would fold faster than Superman on laundry day if scattered and picked off piecemeal, but I'm quite happy with that!)
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Tue Jan 05 2016, 21:32

@Creeping Darkness wrote:

Personally I'd like to see some kind of arc of fire concept introduced to the game in general, even if just for overwatch - it bugs the hell out of me that I can sneak up on a unit and jump it from behind
When I first started playing, over-watch was only available in the model's vision arc, usually 90 degrees, and you also had to basically forfeit that model's turn to even be able to fire over-watch.  This was... quite a long time ago.
@Creeping Darkness wrote:

1. Upgraded Aerial Assault rule for all vehicles: Move 12" and still embark/disembark, allow the vehicle to fire all weapons at full BS, allow troops on board to fire at full BS. Suddenly we are fast again.
I played a few games with some similar homebrew rules and it worked out pretty well.  I added in that deep striking skimmers had a choice of strafing run or skyfire special rules on turns they arrived.  I'm really not a fan of our flyers, and hate we have no skyfire outside of them.
@Creeping Darkness wrote:

2. Open up wargear selection. Remove ridiculous footnotes and give everyone access to all special and heavy weapons. Kabalites get more versatile with heat lances and haywire, reavers get the option for shredders or splinter cannon for pre assault softening up, Wych hekatrices can get venom blades, all squad leaders can get haywire or plasma. I'd like Kabalites to get grenade options too, does this still count as one change? Razz
Considering the corsairs list allows most of these options, I think it's just a matter of time.  And ya, I consider this 1 change  geek
@Creeping Darkness wrote:

3. Remodel Power from Pain so that murdering models provides benefits to those nearby, and so that the pain fades from turn to turn, necessitating constant topping up. So, combat troops buff their support squads with their prowess, and become stronger after the initial charge. Equally, a squad of Kabalites that shoots an enemy and kills a few provides bonuses to the Wyches that are positioned to assault. As turns go by and the amount of pain ebbs, the Dark Eldar player is incentivised to do more murdering - possibly making tactically inadvisable decisions such as leaving objectives to keep the pain tally high, so that units gain power. I concede the details of this one might be tricky!
Power from pain needs another rework.  I'm not totally against the turn based chart, but I'd really like to see more options to put some resilience where we choose.  As for "tactically inadvisable" decisions, I think GW should continue the trend from the covens supplement of giving us bonus VPs for conditional kills.  This would mean that objectives could go out the window as long as we were smart about what we killed, and with what.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Tue Jan 05 2016, 23:29

@stilgar27 wrote:

When I first started playing, over-watch was only available in the model's vision arc, usually 90 degrees, and you also had to basically forfeit that model's turn to even be able to fire over-watch.  This was... quite a long time ago.

Good ol' 2nd ed...

Turn 1A: "I hide everything, and overwatch."
Turn 1B: "So do I."
...
Turn 4B: "Ok, I've survived the overwatch fire of your whole army with my 3+ on 2d6, 3++ save... eat vortex grenade!"

Fun times Smile

Personally I'd like arc of fire to make a return, with more constrained arcs of fire for heavy weapons vs rapid fire and assault weapons. I think it would help the shooty balance if you had to decide where to aim your heavy gear in the movement phase. But I can see the impracticality with the current model range.

@stilgar27 wrote:

Power from pain needs another rework.  I'm not totally against the turn based chart, but I'd really like to see more options to put some resilience where we choose.  As for "tactically inadvisable" decisions, I think GW should continue the trend from the covens supplement of giving us bonus VPs for conditional kills.  This would mean that objectives could go out the window as long as we were smart about what we killed, and with what.

Ya the turn based is easy and works for the whole army, which is nice, but I think we can do better and make it both a net plus, with more (some!) choices, and give it a much stronger flavour.
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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Tue Feb 23 2016, 09:48

1) fix the lazy and/sloppy rules in our books. Example, shredders don't have the monofilament rule even though it describes the ad such in the fluff. Not that I would use the it just bugs me.

2) give us a formation detachment and formations that or good like the newer books

3) give us a good Lord of war.



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PostSubject: Re: Fix the Codex with 3 changes or less   Wed Feb 24 2016, 06:10

I've always felt that our codex could be greatly improved by adding one thing:

Our archons/succubi/haem should have access to a much larger inventory of weapons and upgrades. All kabals/cults/coves in the dark city favor different forms of vanity and pain, and so their equipment and augmentations vary similarly.

Archons boasting their superiority on jetbikes, succubi whirling into combat amongst cackling hellions, a haemonculus with wings savoring the pain of battle from above. This smallish change would open up a ton of potential combos

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