HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing

Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Squidmaster
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1815
Join date : 2013-12-18
Location : Hampshire, England

PostSubject: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Sat Oct 17 2015, 11:30

So, its seems generally accepted, at least around here, that a character with a Webway Portal can be put in a Fortification at the start of the game, and as such allows that Fortification to Deep Strike.


So, is this going to far?
Make that Fortification a Wall Of Martyrs. Lines + Bunkers all connected. That way when you deploy it, you can configure in whatever way to so desire once it lands. Legit?


Also, if its multi-part, could you deploy multiple units in the same Fortification? What do you think?
Back to top Go down
http://www.escelionfilms.com
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5486
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Sat Oct 17 2015, 15:12

I don't have my books in front of me, but am bewildered to the logic of how that works. By what logic are you getting a building into reserve with embarked models?

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Squidmaster
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1815
Join date : 2013-12-18
Location : Hampshire, England

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Sat Oct 17 2015, 15:21

Its been discussed on here befopre.
The general theory is that if a character with a Webway Portal is starting the game embarked in a Fortification, then as per the Webway Portal it gains the Deep Strike rule.
Back to top Go down
http://www.escelionfilms.com
Jimsolo
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3064
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Sat Oct 17 2015, 15:55

RAW, provided there was room to deploy the Fortification it can be deployed in Reserve, and thus Deep Struck by an Archon.

I've literally never seen an FAQ or independent tournament which allowed it.
Back to top Go down
Myrvn
Sybarite


Posts : 371
Join date : 2012-08-05

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Sat Oct 17 2015, 16:15

I appreciate the discussion and opinion on this, but RAW seems ambiguous at best and left to local meta. I've heard convincing arguments on both sides, including an earlier discussion here. So as long as local meta allows it, go for it. But don't be surprised if different groups go different directions. Even with RAW.
Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Sun Oct 18 2015, 18:00

Do fortifications count as units?


Regardless of whether this works, I love the image. Laughing

Back to top Go down
amorrowlyday
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1295
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Massachusetts

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Sun Oct 18 2015, 18:37

No, but they count as vehicles for embarkation purposes.
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7132
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Sun Oct 18 2015, 22:43

Actually they do count as units, or at least any that are Buildings do. From the Battlefield Terrain rules:

Quote :
• At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player, whilst all other buildings are ‘unclaimed’.
• A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army and will remain so, even if it later becomes unoccupied, until the building is either destroyed or claimed by an enemy.

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
amorrowlyday
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1295
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Massachusetts

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Sun Oct 18 2015, 22:57

So then the next question that I can't resolve is: are type "battlefield debris" fortifications buildings?
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7132
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Mon Oct 19 2015, 00:02

Nope, they're terrain.

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
Creeping Darkness
Wych
avatar

Posts : 548
Join date : 2012-11-21

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Mon Oct 19 2015, 06:09

Of course, it's worth remembering that if you squeeze a fortification through a webway portal you open yourself up to equally ridiculous RAW plays from your opponent.

Are pyrovores still worded such that by pure RAW they inflict their hits on exploding to every unit on the board? With Ignores Cover and all, that seems like it could be a hard counter to Deep Striking a Wall of Martyrs... study Razz
Back to top Go down
http://thecreepingdarkness.blogspot.com
dumpeal
Wych
avatar

Posts : 845
Join date : 2015-02-13
Location : Québec

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Mon Oct 19 2015, 15:00

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Of course, it's worth remembering that if you squeeze a fortification through a webway portal you open yourself up to equally ridiculous RAW plays from your opponent.

Are pyrovores still worded such that by pure RAW they inflict their hits on exploding to every unit on the board? With Ignores Cover and all, that seems like it could be a hard counter to Deep Striking a Wall of Martyrs... study Razz

The only wording abusion allowed should be ours! All the others aren't fair!
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5486
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Tue Oct 20 2015, 00:37

@Jimsolo wrote:
RAW, provided there was room to deploy the Fortification it can be deployed in Reserve, and thus Deep Struck by an Archon.

I've literally never seen an FAQ or independent tournament which allowed it.
Finally got home to see my books.
Pretty sure this doesn't work RAW - officially the only things you are allowed to embark upon in Reserve are Transport Vehicles.
Buildings are not transport vehicles even though they share some rules with them.

Therefore, RAW, wouldn't it be impossible to actually embark upon them in the first place, and thus they would be auto-destroyed upon being placed in reserves?

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Eldur
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 258
Join date : 2011-12-08

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Tue Oct 20 2015, 00:56

Turn 1: scalpel squadron
Turn 2: a whole wall of martyrs with the rest of the dark eldar army appears and shoots point-blank. Even HWGs fly into the enemy ranks.
Turn 3: at last, wyches see some use, charging from cover into the survivors!!! ...aaaand there you go, dead wyches again.


_________________
Archon ÐЖѦXΛI: Let's go outside... and wipe out an entire civilization in a feast of murder and pain.

Eldur project log for Dark Eldar and Eldar
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3064
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Tue Oct 20 2015, 05:18

@Thor665 wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
RAW, provided there was room to deploy the Fortification it can be deployed in Reserve, and thus Deep Struck by an Archon.

I've literally never seen an FAQ or independent tournament which allowed it.  
Finally got home to see my books.
Pretty sure this doesn't work RAW - officially the only things you are allowed to embark upon in Reserve are Transport Vehicles.
Buildings are not transport vehicles even though they share some rules with them.

Therefore, RAW, wouldn't it be impossible to actually embark upon them in the first place, and thus they would be auto-destroyed upon being placed in reserves?

The book also tells us that for all interactions with special rules, to treat buildings as if they were vehicles. (I think it's under the section on shooting at buildings.)
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5486
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Tue Oct 20 2015, 16:39

Even if that rule exists, and I don't think it does, are units being placed in reserves a special rule?
I don't think they are, a special rule is, as defined by the book, on pages 156-174 - reserves are not discussed there. Deep Striking is, but that doesn't allow a unit with Deep Striking to ignore which types of units can be embarked upon from in reserves, that is not a special rule.

Ergo - RAW, it is possible to place a fortification in reserve.
it is not possible to embark on it.

Unless someone can find a rule stating that buildings *are* transport vehicles you can't embark on them in reserve, yeah?

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3064
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Tue Oct 20 2015, 18:43

Under 'Entering and Exiting Buildings': Moving into our out of a building works the same as embarking or disembarking a vehicle.

Under 'Attacking Buildings': when determining if a building can be affected by a special rule, treat the building as a vehicle unless specifically stated otherwise.

We can embark on vehicles in Reserve, so the first part tells us we can do likewise with a vehicle. The second part tells us the Webway Portal and Deep Strike rules will also function.

Is that RAI? I hope not. Would I allow it in an event? Hell no.
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5486
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Tue Oct 20 2015, 19:13

@Jimsolo wrote:
Under 'Entering and Exiting Buildings': Moving into our out of a building works the same as embarking or disembarking a vehicle.
Agreed - except that's not how you enter in reserves.

@Jimsolo wrote:
Under 'Attacking Buildings': when determining if a building can be affected by a special rule, treat the building as a vehicle unless specifically stated otherwise.
Agreed, but we're not attacking them, and 'Reserve' is not a special rule.

@Jimsolo wrote:
We can embark on vehicles in Reserve, so the first part tells us we can do likewise with a vehicle.
This is the part you lose me.

We are, in reserve, allowed to state that a unit is embarked in a Transport Vehicle.
That is different from a building, which states (I do paraphrase some things down, but these are accurate quotes;

[1] "Models can enter or exit a building through a doorway or other opening that is listed on the the building's datasheet as an Access Point"

and

[2] "Moving into or out of a building works the same as embarking or disembarking from a vehicle, including emergency disembark (Page 81)

The things is [1] You don't use access points in reserves, and [2] nowhere on page 81 does it explain the mechanics for embarking or disembarking in reserves. Also, [2] specifically cites *moving* which you never do in reserve, so is inapplicable RAW (and RAI, I would submit, but that's beside the point)

So, the only relevant rule is the rule on Page 135 about combined reserve units. You may specify that a unit is embarked on a Transport Vehicle.
Is a building a Transport Vehicle? No - it is a building.
Ergo - you may not specify that you are embarked on it, and therefore cannot WWP deploy it.
It doesn't matter if you can move into buildings per embarkation rules, or that they have access points.

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3064
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Tue Oct 20 2015, 21:04

I would argue that you're ignoring the first part, but its a semantic irrelevancy, since we are both in agreement that you can't do it in reality.
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5486
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Tue Oct 20 2015, 21:08

I agree that we are both arguing that it can't be done, i just thought you were arguing that RAW it can be argued, and am disagreeing with that.

Whether or not you can embark on something does not appear to be connected to embarking on it in Reserve.
Whether or not when you move into a building it counts as a vehicle does not make it a vehicle for the question of what unit type it is, and that appears to matter for reserve embarkation.
I'm not seeing a loophole there.

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3064
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Wed Oct 21 2015, 00:48

I think the point we disagree on is whether or not the rules for beginning a game embarked on a vehicle (in reserve or not) apply to buildings.
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5486
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Wed Oct 21 2015, 01:09

Agreed - what I don't understand is your logic for suggesting they support the concept.

A building is not a vehicle - and you don't actually embark per the rules on page 81 when in reserve.
Your argument is that either they are a vehicle (clearly they aren't, and I don't think you're arguing this)
Or, that because you can embark on them like a vehicle that it supersedes the rules on Page 135 - though I don't quite follow why you think that.
You also keep noting special rules, for a reason that i lost on me.

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
amorrowlyday
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1295
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Massachusetts

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Wed Oct 21 2015, 02:02

They keep bringing up special rules because under bone stock circumstances you would be 100% correct with no room for interpretation. Because Webway portals confer deep strike to the bearer, any unit they are attached to, and any vehicle they are embarked upon, and Buildings act as vehicles for embarkation purposes, and for being the target of special rules, webway portals can give buildings  deep strike IF embarkation occurs before the building would enter reserves, and since it now has a special ability that allows it to be placed, without moving, after deployment, the rules that stipulate that if a building can't be placed it is destroyed, no longer apply, as it could be placed we are choosing not to, and the building having the deep strike special rule allows us to.
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5486
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Wed Oct 21 2015, 13:01

Ah, okay.

I am not debating whether deep strike would be conferred - that is clear that it would.

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
jbwms713
Kabalite Warrior


Posts : 119
Join date : 2013-07-13

PostSubject: Re: The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing   Wed Oct 21 2015, 16:02

For sheer fluff, I want to let someone do it with a home-built DE fortification... probably a bunker-sized thing, rather than a whole slew of connected buildings and walkways. I just think it'd be hilarious.

The RAW argument looks to be similar to the idea of putting a Gargantuan Creature into a Tyrannocyte, which some people are okay with and some aren't.

Shrug. Tournaments and events will have their own rulings which we will follow, and in anything friendly just ask. This game is so full of holes that it's impossible to not find a loophole or other vague hint of whatever.
Back to top Go down
 
The whole Deep Striking a Fortification thing
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Drukhari Tactics
-
Jump to: