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Nyx_Necrodragon
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Oct 26 2015, 13:02

It's actually incredibly insulting how nerfed our codex is. It's almost as if someone at GW said 'Hey you know what this is the most advanced race in the galaxy but lets give them non-existant armour and arm them with pea shooters just for lols'. I'm making a point to make as much noise about it as possible, eventually someone at GW will get sick of me and just give us some decent saves and stats.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Oct 26 2015, 13:03

@The Fume Knight wrote:

In a side note when I found out a Witchblade has, not only fleshbane, but armorbane too, I was in disgust.   I always thought that the Incubi Klaives would be at least some type of insane master crafted weapon with similar stats, instead it seems like the Craftworld eldar blow Commorraugh eldar away too quick, not to mention the other races do too. :s

I was equally annoyed about the Fleshbane/Armourbane on Witchblades - especially after our 2+ Poison Venom Blades doubled in cost, and then got removed from 99% of our units anyway (at least scourges can still buy them Rolling Eyes).

Anyway, what I find irritating is that Haemonculus seem to be intended as support units with some melee ability (hence having 3 attacks base, rather than the 1-2 attacks seen on most psykers). But, any bonus they get from having more attacks is lost when they need 4s to wound.

As an example, a Haemonculus with 4+ poison from Flesh Gauntlet (or Sindriq's Sump) vs marines. On the charge he has 5 attacks that hit on 3s and wound on 4s. So 2/3 x 1/2 x 5 = 5/3 wounds before saves.

Now, a Farseer with Wychblade has 3 attacks on the charge, which wound on 2s. So 2/3 x 5/6 x 3 = 5/3.

So, on the charge, the two are literally identical. In addition, the Farseer can theoretically penetrate AV14, whilst the Haemonculus can't even scratch AV10. Now, the Farseer does cost 20pts more, but that includes 75pts of psychic levels. And, whilst the Haemonculus' support bonus is meagre and only applies to his own squad, the Farseer can buff multiple friendly units and/or debuff enemy units - all at great range.

So, what exactly is it we're paying for? Even if you tailor a bit more (e.g. by taking an Agoniser against Marines), then the Haemonculus' combat ability still isn't anything to write home about (and no matter which weapon you take, the Farseer is still better against vehicles). So, we're basically sacrificing unrivalled psychic abilities for negligible gain.

@The Fume Knight wrote:
Yeah, mostly the DE were so visually gorgeous, and thats what made me start buying them

Dark Eldar are definitely one of the nicest looking armies. I'll admit that I was drawn in by a mix of looks and rules - with the 5th edition book meshing fluff and rules very well.

Anyway, on the aesthetic front, I still enjoy conversions with them - I just wish the book had the rules to represent my creations Crying or Very sad . Anyway, I want to end this post on a high note, so here's one of my WIP conversions:

Spoiler:
 

I strongly suspect he'll end up being a Corsair Prince. Razz
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Nyx_Necrodragon
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Oct 26 2015, 13:05

Nice! What wings did you use? Chaos possessed?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Oct 26 2015, 13:53

@Nyx_Necrodragon wrote:
It's actually incredibly insulting how nerfed our codex is. It's almost as if someone at GW said 'Hey you know what this is the most advanced race in the galaxy but lets give them non-existant armour and arm them with pea shooters just for lols'. I'm making a point to make as much noise about it as possible, eventually someone at GW will get sick of me and just give us some decent saves and stats.

When you look at Corsairs, the disparity between DE and Eldar is really laid bare. Like 'would you like to pay 10pts for this amazing all-rounder Eldar weapon, or 20pts for this DE weapon that's worse against virtually against virtually every target?'

@Nyx_Necrodragon wrote:
Nice! What wings did you use? Chaos possessed?

They were from this guy (the small wings on his head):

Spoiler:
 

I originally had 3 sets, and I used one a couple of years ago to make this guy for my VC army:

Spoiler:
 

That was one of my first conversions and a bit slapdash. With my Mandrake, I worked a bit harder to get the wings spread out and also tilt them to fit his pose.

I have one set of wings left for future use. Smile
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RCZ
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Oct 26 2015, 14:36

Yeah! Lists! I will try to be realistic, so i will introduce some sort of limitations on requests.
TOP TEN:

1) Some gear to buy ONLY to incubus that works like banshee masks. No over watch.
2) The fluff-wise consideration that the dark kin held the very best poisons over the galaxy: regarding gargantuan creatures it always wound on 5+.
3) Every other top tier army has easy ways to win, from free points upgrades to large spam of both psy powers and D-weapons. PLEASE, give us one of the most funny shenanigans of the galaxy: cancel the ATSKNF rule. It is simply broken, made for babies that cant play their ubermensch spess meringuss while taking care of leadership tests.
4) Some nasty and funny to play mechanics of self defense, like the old field that add 6" to the distance when targeted.
5) Pass-by hits gear for sale again on raiders and venoms, like the old b°uttraping chains.
7) Some real customization for HQ. It is the richest super villain of the book and cant even buy a bike? Or some drugs?
Cool I like kabalites snipers equipped by hex rifles or that rifle with calcific spears special rule.
9) 4+ armour save on bikes. Our brighter cousins do it Sad
10) One or two nasty special character, expecially one that do something with mandrakes.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Oct 26 2015, 14:45

I'd like our HQs to be able to jump between nearby transports. I don't care whether it would serve any tactical purpose - I just love the image.  pirat  

@RCZ wrote:

10) One or two nasty special character, expecially one that do something with mandrakes.

I'd like an actual Mandrake HQ (a non-SC one).

What do you mean I'm biased?  Suspect

Spoiler:
 
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BlackSands
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Oct 26 2015, 17:30

Idk...I'm not really that upset with the codex. I would like to see a forgeworld LoW Vect and Dias. Archon able to take a jetbike or skyboard as a dedicated transport would be sweet. And more damn weapons in the box kits. If Harlequins can ALL take neuro disruptors...they should be there...if scourges can take 4 haywire blasters they should be there. And something to make the Djinn Blade worth it. Otherwise I'm good.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Oct 26 2015, 18:06

^ This

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Oct 26 2015, 23:06

Hmmm....

HQ's...

Archon needs access to better weaponry (read, AP2). Some special rules to reflect their tactical/scheming genius would be nice (Autarchs get their reserve manipulation in addition to decent stats, but also get arguably better weaponry options, particularly with Relics). Look to the rumored Corsair Prince 'traits' as the sort of thing I mean.

Succubus needs a 5++ vs shooting, *maybe* a 3++ in combat. The Glaive is fun, but the single-hand option is pointless, it really should be S+1 AP3 or S+2 AP2 two-handed. Add more points if you must, but a useless option may as well not be an option.

Heamy? I'm pretty okay with him, actually... moderately priced support HQ. Would benefit from some wargear changes that affect general HQ's, such as...

Bring back Ghost Plate as a basic choice, without taking up the Relic slot. Clone Field back to its old form, or a similar ability (it was cool). Give us back our "Haemonculus toys"... tossing down pebbles that open portals into collapsed webway sections, releasing deamons from archaic casks, we were the first to have a "relic list", and we should have an awesome one. Especially things that destroy psykers.

As is, we don't actually have any "scary" HQ's. That should change, especially with what we pay for a "combat kitted" Archon.

Elites? Mandrakes need the 5++ back, and some sort of combat (rending?) buff.
Give Incubi their Tormentor Helms back - counts-as grenades and unit can't overwatch due to being wracked with pain
Trueborn - open up their weapon options to include the full "heavy" list (haywire and heat lance). Any reason each one can't take a special weapon? Giving the Dracon a reason to exist would be nice.
Grotesques? I'd be happy to give them a slight nerf at this point if everything else got buffed. They're really good for the points. But maybe that's because so much else is lacking that little something?
Bloodbrides... make wyches usable, and then these can be a better, more expensive version. Right now they're a more expensive, still bad unit.

Warriors - Drop blaster cost by 5 points. Really that effects more than just Warriors, but it's here. Probably also splinter cannons. I'd be interested to see an assault weapon option... splinter pod profile? If a Dark Lance is man-portable, why can't a dissie be? Although that requires new models...

Wyches - I think Dodge affecting the whole assault phase (ie, overwatch) would go a long way. Maybe a special "Bail Out!" rule to give an I test to avoid taking damage from exploding vehicles... or if that's too good for a relatively inexpensive troop choice (it's probably not) at least a re-roll to wound them? I think Wych Weapons should go back to being a unit upgrade that makes them tar-pitty again, or just have options (ie, may be equipped with 'razor flails and hydra knives' - unit gains Shred - for +1ppm. May be equipped with 'Shardnets and impalers' - defensive grenades, and enemy units at -1WS/A to min 1 - +1ppm). Drug table could be made better/simplified/whatever... as is it's a small boost that isn't the reason Wyches aren't worth taking.

Really may as well make Wracks troops. They're not worth taking as Elites... poison CCW? We have *ranged* poison everywhere else, it's not a novelty.

Would love to see Skilled Rider (as an upgrade, if nothing else) on our vehicles. Bring back night shields - stealth in the land of Ignores Cover is both useless and boring in general.

Reavers? A 4+ would be nice. Again, the land of Ignores Cover means they really have little to no survivability, and even with cover, it's "how many shots to kill a marine?... not too many".

Hellions? Stuff and things. I never used them, but expensive T3 5+ things aren't ever really good. They were useful with stealth and the ability to use cover.

Beasts? Just un-nerf the actual beasts and that'd probably be fine.

Razorwing = Vector Dancer.

Ravager = Aerial Assault. C'mon. Stop raising the price on stuff that heavy bolters can pile drive.

Void Bomber... just try again. Seriously. Just try again.
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BlackSands
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Oct 26 2015, 23:19

Idk. I don't play many games. But when I do they all have their "role". As for the upgrades....I don't want them. I like being the underdog...whom with the right strategy and tactics " can" take out anything. They weren't meant to be the best army and I like it that way. They are basically pirates who are suppose to Strike fast and quick...then get out of dodge. The potential is there...I have used wyches and Voidraven bombers successfully in Apocalypse games(meaning got their points worth) I don't play often but when I do...they never know what to expect.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Oct 26 2015, 23:58

@jbwms713 wrote:

Autarchs get their reserve manipulation in addition to decent stats, but also get arguably better weaponry options

I'm sorry but that made me laugh pretty hard.  There's no arguably about it.

When I play craftworlders, my favorite autarch has a warp spider jump generator, mandiblaster,  shard of anaris and a reaper launcher.  He also comes standard with 3+/4++ armor for free as well as haywire grenades.

So ya he does the reserve thing, he's fearless (shard), he fills the hq requirement.  He can move roughly 15" and kill 2 marines at 48".  He can then dart back 2d6" into cover during the assault phase.  He can fend off most things in melee (I10 4+ poison autohit and 4 str5 rending attacks) and negate or destroy most characters by issuing challenges (in which he gains fleshbane and instant death).

This is just my favorite autarch, if I have the points, out of 4 different builds I field.

My Archon? He gets a blaster and a sad face.

Pretty much sums up the dark kin/craftworlders disparity.
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 00:15

@stilgar27 wrote:


My Archon? He gets a blaster and a sad face.

lol!
Best line in this thread
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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 02:31

Heh... I guess I was being generous.

It's obvious to see what GW was *trying* to do - base entry, Archons get better stats on nearly every combat value, while Autarchs get better armor and the "I'm a commander" rule.

However, the vast array of wargear available, plus simply better weapon options, make the Autarch generally better in combat. Even against each other, the Autarch stands a reasonable chance in a challenge.

Sigh... I miss when the Archon (or even a Dracon) was a murder machine. I'd even trade a little bit of the murder for some actual force multiplication, but there's zero of that.

Between Eldar and the rumored Corsairs, Dark Eldar have gone from being The True Kin, to being "Those guys who carry the Webway Portals".
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BlackSands
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 02:45

I don't know much about the eldar...how much would that Autarch run?
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 03:02

@jbwms713 wrote:
Heh... I guess I was being generous.

It's obvious to see what GW was *trying* to do - base entry, Archons get better stats on nearly every combat value, while Autarchs get better armor and the "I'm a commander" rule.

Ya I realize you were just being diplomatic about the "arguably" part.  I just found it funny was all.

@jbwms713 wrote:
Between Eldar and the rumored Corsairs, Dark Eldar have gone from being The True Kin, to being "Those guys who carry the Webway Portals".

Sadly, if all the rumored abilities are accurate, corsairs get better web way portals too.

It's called a Multi-phase Key Generator and is something of a hybrid of the 5th and 7th edition web way portals.  It remains mobile with the unit that possesses it and can be used during the shooting phase to set up a point that acts as your table edge for the purposes of reserves. It can also be used to get retreating units into ongoing reserves (rather than running off the board), which may be incredibly useful for these guys.

I'd be angry if i weren't excited to build a corsairs force.  It's even better that it's one that can incorporate most of my odd ball model collection.  I'm digging up all kinds of fun old stuff that fit the new book like - metal rangers, lasblaster guardians, swooping hawks, and vyper jetbikes.  I even realized today that I could field all the various death jesters I've collected, converted, and painted over the years as a single unit.

I'm pretty psyched. bounce

And to answer the question, that Autarch runs 155 points.
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BlackSands
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 03:14

So basically 2.5 Archon at base value
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BlackSands
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 03:41

Basically you give the Archon a shadow field...makes him 100pts and the Autarch will "more than likely" be tied up for an entire round of combat.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 04:27

@BlackSands wrote:
Basically you give the Archon a shadow field...makes him 100pts and the Autarch will "more than likely" be tied up for an entire round of combat.  

In a vacuum, a shadowfield archon would have a pretty good chance to kill these (or most) autarchs in melee, the problem in this particular scenario is he'd never catch one without help.  To even get close to jetpack mobility the Archon would need a venom (and become more expensive than what you're trying to kill), and even then the autarch would still be roughly as fast as the venom while maintaining better weapons range.  You would eventually herd him into someone's charge range but...

A better strategy, if you were tailoring to kill this particular character, would be to deep strike via web way portal or venom with a blaster and hope he fails some saves.  The venom's cannons could chip in too of course.  He's pretty vulnerable to shooting, as long as he doesn't have a chance to put something between you and him during his bonus moves.

The thing is though, that if you were tailoring to each other's armies ahead of time, you'd probably never face this autarch to begin with.  He's more of a take all comers, trollface/marine killer. That's kind of what took this topic off the rails, the fact that craftworlders have so many HQ options to choose from and we really don't.

I personally tend to bring farseers for HQ when I *know* I'll have free reign in the psychic phase.
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BlackSands
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 04:42

I understand the logic about HQ choices...however in a dark eldar universe most archons I would at least assume don't last long.  The important ones they have cut out apparently. I would like to see Vect come back with a Dias in a forgeworld Apocalypse type model and value.  

However you can't just pinpoint HQ...all of the dark eldar entries have very bad weaknesses in most regards.  But that is not how you play them. The Dark Eldar are an extremely hard army to master and play. But if done right can make enemies cry. I like that they bring a challenge to the game. I don't like how they are leaning more as an attachment for Eldar and really need their own LoW's. The ideas for this army are limitless...Some monstrosity from a coven...A vampire raider type flyer with 4 void lances or something... A new "viable" reason to field a raven would be nice(a new model too).

But I can't complain. I don't play often... When I do its tyranids...orks...or necrons. Otherwise I don't know much and I usually only do 10k point battles.

Plus I don't see why archons can't take a jetbike or skyboard...that would give him the mobility...not great but better
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BlackSands
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 04:53

No double posts please. Use the Edit function. Thanks - Count Adhemar
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The Fume Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 08:27

I honestly haven't played to much to give a critique from our lists to other armies except from basically experience and what others have showed me about a entry from their codex, but yeah.

Do we even have any units that can designate skyfire? Like, apart from our own aircraft? Aircraft of which btw, would get decimated by any other armies aircraft I assume.

I just don't understand how GW was able to neglect so many things in this army, when I was way younger, just collecting 40k, had no idea how to play, the store I went to, to buy my models, didn't carry DE, because of the fact that 'They are the most unpopular army.' I remember them telling me. The only real thing I can think of when it comes to GW not giving the army too many effective things, is because, we are 'pirates' all we have is what we pillage, that being said, I would figure that the Eldar, whether sadistic or not, could probably come up with Deathly effective weaponry for whatever they do happen to pillage, instead, the Cave Monkey Orks, have more effective weaponry than some of our most elites.. A Power Klaw makes the Klaive look like a toy. Reading codex entries talking about the fluff of our race, 'Rise of Vect' in the story it says "From each nearby port shard came hundreds of exotic craft, each but a splinter next to the slab-like ships of the Imperium, but deadly nonetheless. Voidraven Bombers and Razorwing jetfighters..."

That basically says it as it is. We have all we need to deal with enemy codexes, we just need tons of everything to do it, and in fluff I guess point cost doesn't matter, I'd also assume that the Archons of the Kabals would realize although all the commorites are raiders, not warmongers, maybe they should get strong enough things to deal with the other armies, who ARE warmongers? I guess not.

But I digress, this is going to sound more like a rant. Anyways it would just be nice if we would have a more effective answer than "Don't have our elites charge that unit, they are just good at killing regular troops, gotta shoot their elites with guns because our elites can't hang, also put the Archon against troops too, but make sure he has a Shadowfield otherwise he's going to get bent over by those 5 ork boyz, lets pray that the enemy doesn't have any aircraft or we would need 6 Razorwings with lances to compensate."

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 15:02

@The Fume Knight wrote:
Do we even have any units that can designate skyfire? Like, apart from our own aircraft? Aircraft of which btw, would get decimated by any other armies aircraft I assume.

No, no we don't.  It's 2015, 2 full editions and 3 years into the "OMG YOU HAVE TO HAVE FLYERS AND AA" period of 40k, and they gave us a brand new codex with no skyfire outside of our (mediocre at best) flyers.

@The Fume Knight wrote:
I just don't understand how GW was able to neglect so many things in this army

We actually went 12 years without a new codex, so I'd say neglect seems to be the defining characteristic of GW's relationship with the Dark Kin.
Spoiler:
 
We've only really had 3 books and the most recent was actually a step backward, which addressed almost none of the previous book's flaws, while eliminating many of our best tactics and characters.  Keep in mind that this is in an edition where literally every other army book has seen considerable improvements.

@The Fume Knight wrote:
The only real thing I can think of when it comes to GW not giving the army too many effective things, is because, we are 'pirates' all we have is what we pillage.

As for pillaging?  

Fluff wise, we are supposed to be the most technologically advanced civilization in the universe (the Demiurg might disagree).  We regularly steal planets, and occasionally suns.  Our home is essentially a dyson sphere (which would create nearly unlimited energy and therefore resources) in a pan-dimensional pocket we can manipulate.  We can move across the galaxy with relative ease, almost instantly, and with little risk.  We are functionally immortal.   

Maybe all this is why we don't care if our armor stops anything or if we just fail in general?  We're probably just really bored with being so freakin' awesome...  No

@The Fume Knight wrote:
We have all we need to deal with enemy codexes, we just need tons of everything to do it.

Not to nitpick but your own post is about how we don't have everything we need(specifically skyfire).  We also don't have any effective way to challenge psykers.  So, ya eventually you'll roll a 6 and hit that flyer or invisible death star, but you'll need roughly 6 times as many points as most armies would and I doubt your opponent will agree to that.  Given our current costs I'd guess it'd probably be more like 8 times as many points though.

Sheer numbers really aren't the answer here, as we aren't guardsmen or cultists who just come back on the table after getting wiped out because there are millions of us on a planet.  We're a (somewhat) elite force, which has taken considerable resources to even get into realspace for a raid.  We're supposed to get *stuff* done and be gone before those millions of guardsmen even know we're there.

Apologies for the semi-rant Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 22:37

@stilgar27 wrote:
We're a (somewhat) elite force, which has taken considerable resources to even get into realspace for a raid.  We're supposed to get *stuff* done and be gone before those millions of guardsmen even know we're there.

This is cunningly represented in game by the way any real army will thrash us. It's our own fault for not finishing the raid quickly enough!

@stilgar27 wrote:
No, no we don't.  It's 2015, 2 full editions and 3 years into the "OMG YOU HAVE TO HAVE FLYERS AND AA" period of 40k, and they gave us a brand new codex with no skyfire outside of our (mediocre at best) flyers.

I could live with no ground-based skyfire if we had the opportunity to give Razorwing Jetfighters AA missiles. S8 AP3 would be ok, doesn't have to be awesome, just actually usable when the Razorwing wants to pretend it is actually a Fighter rather than a ground attack aircraft. Heck I'd take S7 AP4.

If I were to dreaming hat on for a minute, I would wish for a 'leech' missile, inspired by our Gothic ships, that affects enemy movement. Something like, S7 AP4 Heavy 1 One Shot, Leech: penetrating hits are always resolved as 'Immobilised' results. It would be useless against battle tanks, super heavies & creatures, but great at stopping transports in their tracks, forcing the guys inside to come out and be destroyed fight, and lethal against flyers.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 22:49

It certainly seems silly that our Jetfighter only has access to air-to-ground missiles.

Especially when we have a dedicated bomber...
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Tue Oct 27 2015, 23:23

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
I could live with no ground-based skyfire if we had the opportunity to give Razorwing Jetfighters AA missiles. S8 AP3 would be ok, doesn't have to be awesome, just actually usable when the Razorwing wants to pretend it is actually a Fighter rather than a ground attack aircraft. Heck I'd take S7 AP4.

Actually this is one of the major reasons I take a stormraven when I play marines, people never think about those 4 range 72" strength 8 ap2 concussive missiles hitting their flyers (or better yet FMC) until it's too late.  That's only if I don't take my unit of 3 stalkers, which is pretty cheese depending on how skimmer/flyer oriented your meta is (and mine is heavily).

And this is the real problem I see with us not getting anything new in this area.  The newer anti air units don't just have skyfire, but also interceptor and some way to ignore cover.  So not only do we not have any new sources of anti air, but our only current form is increasingly vulnerable.

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
If I were to dreaming hat on for a minute, I would wish for a 'leech' missile, inspired by our Gothic ships, that affects enemy movement. Something like, S7 AP4 Heavy 1 One Shot, Leech: penetrating hits are always resolved as 'Immobilised' results.

Once again the marines get something we should have in the form of the storm raven's concussive missiles and the land speeder storms blind ones.  Used in conjunction they can often ruin a wraithknight's ability to fight for 2 rounds a game, while stripping a few of his wounds (especially if you include some assault cannons).  Meanwhile the storm raven can scoot around still doing pretty much whatever it wants and drop off it's units while firing another gun at something else.

We basically don't get any de-buffs (or really any dirty tricks) at all. Crying or Very sad
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