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Gherma
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   10/10/2015, 22:22

I think a little few little changes could make our codex a lot more better... there are my ideas:

- AP 2 Huskblade, and maybe something more

- Psyker protection character in the archon court

- More interesting artifacts for Haemonculus or make them more interesting

- Wyches with rending and 5++ invulnerable save against everything. I think they should be similar to Daemonettes

- Power weapons or venom weapon options to Bloodbrides... and maybe improved dodge (4++)

- Ghostplate for Trueborn

- Give a meaning to Hellions... maybe some kind of anti flyer attack like Eldar Falcons

- Ravager move 12 and shots with everything

- Strenght D on Void Weapons... and maybe more Void weapons around

- Vect as a Lord of War

- Interesting Dark Angels style kabalite formation, with the basic that let you run and charge and let you deep strike on first turn, plus the possibilities of full wyches and coven armies (as DA Ravenwing or Deathwing).

So so simple...

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   10/10/2015, 23:55

* The new codex NOT being "Codex Eldar: Dark Eldar", but instead "Codex Dark Eldar: Wych Cults", "Codex Dark Eldar: Commorrite Kabals" and "Codex Dark Eldar: Haemonculus Covens", released in that order. And of course, each having their own Power From Pain chart.

* A much more versatile, flavorful and most of all accessable armory. Space Marines are not the only folks able to be flexible with their war gear!
- The Shredder becomming a pinning weapon. Maybe adding a pistol variant for characters.
- Adding a pseudo-Assault-Grenade special rule to Splinter Pods, similar to that of the Skull Cannon.
- The Flicker Field becomming an alternative option for all Dark Eldar vehicles again (yes, even for the Venom).
- Making the Archangel of Pain work against targets with ATSKNF and Fearless. After all, it's not just an illusion like from the gas grenades, but an actual Daemon attacking their minds!

* More characters. Returning; at least Asrubael Vect, Kheradruakh and Sathonyx. Also, one new character in each book. The Kabals one probably being Malidrach on his jetbike. A Hellion character for Wyches and a "Scourge Master" for the Haemonculi would seem like good ideas to me.

* Succubus renamed back to "Archite". It's their official title anyway, and "Succubus" is really just Mon'keigh slang for them.
(Besides, "Archite" is trademarkable term while "Succubus" isn't)

* "Archites" gaining access to a Reaver Jetbike or Hellion Skyboard.

* A new "Hellion Lord" character class, essencially an Archon on a Hellion Skyboard, added to the Kabal codex.

* Haemonculi gaining access to wings, which make them Jet Pack Infantry (see Scourges below).

* Bloodbrides becomming a more distinct unit with a signature weapon, maybe some kind of polearm; a traditional and more sophisticated weapon from before the time when Lelith made knives cool. Also, the option to equip each one with a special Wych Weapon, Blaster or Shredder Pistol or Haywire Grenades.
Hey, pure Wych Cult armies need to deal with heavy armor somehow!

* Incubi getting back the Tormentor, if only just as a special rule that works as if they had Assault Grenades.

* Trueborn regaining access to Shard Carbines. Also to Ghostplate Armor and maybe to four Dark Lances/Splinter Cannons per squad.

* Mandrakes gaining the Daemon special rule and rending close combat weapons.

* Wracks moved from Elite to Troops and in their place added an actual Elite version of themselves, wich, not unlike Trueborn, can equip four squad members with special weapons.

* Razorwing Flocks' Weapon Skill buffed to 3 at least. It just doesn't seem right that they are worse at hitting in close combat than Tau.

* Scourges changed from Jump Infantry to Jet Pack Infantry. After all, they are the kind of unit that would rather shoot and jump for cover than jump into close combat.

* Razorwing Jetfighters and Voidraven Bombers gaining the Vector Dancer special rule. Also, the Razorwing gaining a type of air-air missile to actually fight other jets, and the Void Mine becomming a Destroyer weapon.

* A super heavy version of a Raider, to transport more troops more savely and packing more firepower.

* A gargantuan version of a Talos, to fight other Gargantuan Creatures and infantry hordes with. Needs access to a Destroyer weapon of some kind!

* Formations, and strong ones at that!


That's all I could think of right now.

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Last edited by Rokuro on 11/10/2015, 08:05; edited 3 times in total
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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   11/10/2015, 05:26

https://docs.google.com/document/d/144Q2OhWUvMcf6CqEioLPQ-KxadPd1VZdTdx0whjgWlY/edit?usp=docslist_api

Here are my homebrew rules. Has all the tweaks ide like to see
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   11/10/2015, 07:28

This thread has become a wish list again. I think the fewer changes are needed, the better.

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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   11/10/2015, 07:32

@Rathian wrote:
I decided to shout my frustration into the teeth of a hurricane and emailed a link to this thread to GW customer service 10 minutes ago asking them to pass it on to whoever writes the DE codex.... Just got a reply back from a helpful lady who said she had done just that!!! Not expecting anything to come from it mind, but at least someone at GW took the time to reply.

You're my hero! Very Happy

If only half of this wish list compilation makes it into a new codex I'd already be happy. Although by then we'd most likely be again behind the power curve without ALL of the suggested changes here.

Great idea!

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   11/10/2015, 08:10

@CptMetal wrote:
This thread has become a wish list again. I think the fewer changes are needed, the better.

Well, some of my points were not really important changes, but I think I included everything an army needs to be "competitive" these days:
* More powerful ranged weapons.
* More efficient melee units.
* Super-heavies.
* Formations.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   11/10/2015, 08:21

Agreed. Formations with actual benefits like in the coven book.

The more effective range weapons in terms of a void Lance not only in the bomber. That could be solved using a Ravager formation too.

Super heavies? I don't think that fits to dark Eldar. But give us something to mess with enemy super heavies.

More effective Melee units? Well, grotesques and Incubbi are great. Reaver are good too and also beasts. It can be narrowed down to Hellions and witches. If each squad could decide what drug to take at be beginning or even every turn, they would be awesome. Power from Pain and drugs. Yes please. But as it stands now, 2/3 of the drugs are useful. The rest is garbage

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   11/10/2015, 16:14

@CptMetal wrote:
This thread has become a wish list again. I think the fewer changes are needed, the better.

That's kind of the problem though. The codex needs a lot of changes. It basically needs an almost complete revamp.

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   11/10/2015, 23:26

Anyone see the leaked Tau pics?  Their new troopers get (dependent on range) strength 6 ap3 shotguns, a 4+/5++ save, defensive grenades and the ability to take haywire grenades (+2 points).  They weigh in at 9 points per model and can take a skimmer transport and all kinds of nifty upgrades like heavy weapons platforms.

Remember when we had a 10 point assault troops that could take haywire grenades?  Man that was overpowered; sure glad they fixed that. Rolling Eyes  It's actually somewhat mind-boggling how far backward the 7th edition codex took us considering how much more powerful almost every other faction has become, even before broken formations.

I agree with the count that this codex is so far out of line with the rest it'll probably just need to be re-written.  There is no simple supplement or formation fix like what worked for the orks and nids.

(P.S. GW I want more slave/mercenary races next time, like the Hrud, Loxatl, or Slaugth)
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 01:09

if they would go over each and every unit in the codex, read the goddamn fluff, and make rules somewhere in that area points cost or not ... i'd be good.
i want some options and something that stands out from the crowd not this mellowed down crap
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Rathian
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 11:22

Just want to check a point; a few have posted about Ravagers moving 12" and being able to fire 3 weapons. I thought as the Fast Skimmer type they could do that in 7th?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 11:26

@Rathian wrote:
Just want to check a point; a few have posted about Ravagers moving 12" and being able to fire 3 weapons. I thought as the Fast Skimmer type they could do that in 7th?

Nope. They can fire 2 weapons at full BS and the third would snapshot. They used to have the aerial assault rule but that was way too OP (apparently).

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Rathian
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 11:29

What a crock of... and breeeatheee.

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Rathian
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 11:41

Interesting points on Dark Eldar in assaults...

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/10/40k-many-assault-armies-suck-at-assaulting-wtf.html

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drdoom222222
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 11:45

Its pointless listing all the problems with the codex (would require a whole new codex, which is unlikely to happen anytime soon.) Is there any simple tweaks to the codex that could be done easily (little or no change to kit, points etc. so it can be put in the next faq, errata, etc.)

Here is my top 5 changes

1. change scourge from jump inf. to jet pack.
2. wyches cc save works for the whole assault phase and have +4 poison in cc.
3. Incubi get assault grenades.
4. Allow succubus and archon access to jetbikes.
5. bring down the cost of helm of spite and extend range to 24 inchs.

I would love to see the following formations

Formation- Dark Ravager Squadron
can take 3 ravagers  as 1 Heavy support slot
can move 12 a shot 3 weapons
lance weapons count as twin linked/ and or replace dis. cannon for D. lances for free

Formation - Dark Skies
2 RJF + 1 Void bomber
All pilots have skilled rider(pilot).
All flyers have Vector dancer.
All lance weapons on flyers count as twin linked when using sky fire (shooting at flyers) / and or interceptor cannot be used against Void bomber.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 11:47

@Rathian wrote:
Interesting points on Dark Eldar in assaults...

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/10/40k-many-assault-armies-suck-at-assaulting-wtf.html

Dont agree with these AT ALL.

1) Wyches arnt a strong Melee unit, they are a cheaper tarpit unit (Rules wise).
2) Our Melee units are fine (Grots, Talos, Incubi, Beasts)
3) LD isnt a problem, we have Grisly Trophies and late game Fearless (melee built armies will have a couple Trophies)


DE CAN build a solid Melee army, its just mostly out of the Coven book

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Rathian
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 11:51

@drdoom222222 wrote:


Formation- Dark Ravager Squadron
can take 3 ravagers  as 1 Heavy support slot
can move 12 a shot 3 weapons
lance weapons count as twin linked/ and or replace dis. cannon for D. lances for free

Formation - Dark Skies
2 RJF + 1 Void bomber
All pilots have skilled rider(pilot).
All flyers have Vector dancer.
All lance weapons on flyers count as twin linked when using sky fire (shooting at flyers) / and or interceptor cannot be used against Void bomber.

Nice ideas there! I also think deep strike without scattering for the Ravager formation. Maybe the combining shots like a Vindicator squadron can do to create a more powerful effect, that could be the D weapon?

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 12:03

Quote :
1) Wyches arnt a strong Melee unit, they are a cheaper tarpit unit (Rules wise).

They are not. A tarpit unit slow sor completely stops an enemy unit. Wyches do not do that. A unit that can run away easily does not qualify as a tarpit by any means.
Try 30 Gaunts under synapse or conscripts with priest. NOW you have a cheap tarpit. Wyches are not.

Quote :
2) Our Melee units are fine (Grots, Talos, Incubi, Beasts)

The only actual melee unit that is fine are grots. Beasts have become abysmal, Incubi lack proper targets and grenades. Talos is okish IF you buy it as a part of a formation. You do not even mention wyches and hellions.

Quote :
3) LD isnt a problem, we have Grisly Trophies and late game Fearless (melee built armies will have a couple Trophies)

You can reroll your Ld 4 you will end up with as often as you want it is still pretty unlikely to pass. Also if you NEED the trophies, your melee unit LOST in melee. Not the hallmark of a good unit.
By the time fearless kicks in (except when you play coven) the game is almost over.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 13:28

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
1) Wyches arnt a strong Melee unit, they are a cheaper tarpit unit (Rules wise).

They are not. A tarpit unit slow sor completely stops an enemy unit. Wyches do not do that. A unit that can run away easily does not qualify as a tarpit by any means.
Try 30 Gaunts under synapse or conscripts with priest. NOW you have a cheap tarpit. Wyches are not.

Quote :
2) Our Melee units are fine (Grots, Talos, Incubi, Beasts)

The only actual melee unit that is fine are grots. Beasts have become abysmal, Incubi lack proper targets and grenades. Talos is okish IF you buy it as a part of a formation. You do not even mention wyches and hellions.

Quote :
3) LD isnt a problem, we have Grisly Trophies and late game Fearless (melee built armies will have a couple Trophies)

You can reroll your Ld 4 you will end up with as often as you want it is still pretty unlikely to pass. Also if you NEED the trophies, your melee unit LOST in melee. Not the hallmark of a good unit.
By the time fearless kicks in (except when you play coven) the game is almost over.

Ive been playing Melee'ish lists alot lately (b.c why not? I play again SM, BA, Eldar and Its only a 20-30% chance I will win anyways)

And Ive been at a 50/50 win/lost rate with Melee Heavy DE compare to Vehicle spam, 5-6 MC's 20 Grots a unit of Incubi for Power armor with 3 IC's (spread out between main units) Vehicles mostly for Getting there, its been really fun.

I dont use Hellions (No one does, they are just a broken unit and needs to be overhaul).

I used beasts of few time, they arnt bad, not amazing like old book, but if you need bodies with Invuls or scare tactic its them.

I do use Eldar Allies mostly for psychic powers (Farseer on Bike in 5 Bike unit with Warlock) and w Melee Wraithknight.


From playing against Highly competitive players, DE really need more Survival and AT/Anti- Super heavy.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 15:48

We're a glass hammer. We shouldn't be survivable. We should just hit like a Mack truck.

1. We do need more counters for super heavies, psykers, and vehicles.
2. Our milquetoast units need to be given some teeth. Hellions, wyches, succubi, beasts, and both our flyers.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 15:57

@Jimsolo wrote:
We're a glass hammer.  We shouldn't be survivable.  We should just hit like a Mack truck.

I think GW view the Eldar race as fragile but deadly. Unfortunately, the Craftworld guys got the deadly and we just got the fragile!

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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 16:23

Pretty much.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   12/10/2015, 17:17

@Jimsolo wrote:
We're a glass hammer.  We shouldn't be survivable.  We should just hit like a Mack truck.

In my opinion our standard troopers shouldn't be physically durable, but since death is often just a temporary inconvenience for the (drugged up, recently cloned, or millennia old veteran) dark kin - we should be far more psychologically durable than most armies.

Instead we have the same morale as our craftworld cousins who are absolutely terrified of death.

It was always funny to me as a CSM player that a couple more points could usually buy a fearless cult version of the unit I wanted with the mark I wanted anyway.  It was like psychology never really figured in to GW's pricing and balancing - even though they constantly harp on it as the most important aspect of a warrior in the fluff.

Absolutely Constantly.

As for the hammer part?  Ya they need to go back to the drawing board on that.  Ever see a craftworlder army built around bright lances?   Me either.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   13/10/2015, 01:33

Can we sticky one of these topics? We seem to have a new one every month or two. We all know the Codex sucks, we all have ideas to boost it, can we keep a single repository somewhere?

On topic, we are not fast enough and don't hit hard enough. We need ways to get into assault and prosper that somehow circumvent the Overwatch Tax and help us withstand being hit back on 4s by guys way stronger than us. My favoured proposal is an overhaul to the core rules to add more tactical depth, but since that ain't going to happen, I'd settle for -

- Wyches Dodge in both Assault sub-phases, get better weapons
- Actual pinning weapons in our book, swap soulfright for old terrorfex rules
- Fricking grenades! There should be grenades (of both sorts) everywhere in our book, not as prestige items for characters Shocked Why the heck do Scourges get plasma grenades yet no access to haywire grenades? Why is a tormentor field not a plasma grenade counts-as?
- 12" move and disembark army wide

- And, of course, some proper heavy weapons would be great

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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   13/10/2015, 01:48

Lots of stuff has already been stated (like formations etc), but my main gripes with the codex re-release was:
1- Huskblade sucks the proverbials. I'd pay points for AP2. But as stated earlier, it could be fluffy for it to be fleshbane. I'd be happy with fleshbane+AP3+ID, or StrUser+AP2+ID

2- Grenades on Incubi

3- drugs on Archon. C'mon... richest, most powerful guy in the kabal but he can't afford drugs? Riiiiiiiiight...

4- Razorwings can vector strike non-vehicals on the ground. That's what they do in the fluff. Make it real.
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