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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Nov 23 2015, 03:21

S6 melta guns for the glass cannon faction are not okay. They're not even close to okay, especially when they cost the same as regular meltas. That we even consider their use is testament to the poor state of Dark Eldar's damage output via darklight
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Nov 23 2015, 03:49

@Leninade wrote:
S6 melta guns for the glass cannon faction are not okay. They're not even close to okay, especially when they cost the same as regular meltas. That we even consider their use is testament to the poor state of Dark Eldar's damage output via darklight

Ah, it makes me think of the old S6 fusion guns for Craftworld Eldar. If I remember correctly, they were S6 when the 3ed book came out in 1999, because geez, they had whole squads of guys that could take them! And you know, not marines, and stuff.

Of course, GW eventually realised that S6 melta was, in fact, lame, and that the Craftworlders could in fact be trusted with S8 melta like proper factions. And by eventually, I mean ~7 years later, in their 4ed book.

But we only got our S6 melta in late 2010, four years after the Craftworlders had upgraded theirs. Clearly, GW had forgotten the lesson that S6 melta is lame. But on the bright side, it's been five years since that heady day of apotheosis when our real codex came out, so according to the precedent above, we might only need to suffer through two more years of sub-standard melta weaponry before we too are promoted from our probationary melta licence to a full melta licence!

Unless of course we correct for the lag between updating eldar and dark eldar codicies, in which case it is more like another nine years.
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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Nov 23 2015, 04:20

I don't think GW realizes that people don't play DE because they get crap on in the fluff and the rules, not because there's no interest
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Nov 23 2015, 06:29

@Leninade wrote:
I don't think GW realizes that people don't play DE because they get crap on in the fluff and the rules, not because there's no interest

I'm certain they do know DE don't sell because the codex isn't good. But unfortunately, the armies that are already popular are given priority for updates.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Nov 23 2015, 20:20

@Rokuro wrote:
@Leninade wrote:
I don't think GW realizes that people don't play DE because they get crap on in the fluff and the rules, not because there's no interest

I'm certain they do know DE don't sell because the codex isn't good. But unfortunately, the armies that are already popular are given priority for updates.

If I may ask, how can you be so sure of that?
Just curious.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Nov 23 2015, 21:40

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:
@Leninade wrote:
I don't think GW realizes that people don't play DE because they get crap on in the fluff and the rules, not because there's no interest

I'm certain they do know DE don't sell because the codex isn't good. But unfortunately, the armies that are already popular are given priority for updates.

If I may ask, how can you be so sure of that?
Just curious.

Observations I guess. There is a reason why Space Marines get new models every year and billions of updates via campaigns, formation dataslates or supplements while certain armies get a book every 2 or 3 editions and are largely ignored after that.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Mon Nov 23 2015, 23:07

I've heard space Marines make as much profit as warhammer fantasy did. Enough said. It's the kids choice army because it's easy and forgiving.

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Fri Nov 27 2015, 20:04

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Observations I guess. There is a reason why Space Marines get new models every year and billions of updates via campaigns, formation dataslates or supplements while certain armies get a book every 2 or 3 editions and are largely ignored after that.

Exactly. Whenever a new edition comes out, so does a new Space Marines codex, usually as the first of all factions. Space Marines are GW's poster army and best seller, and they want to kept them that way no matter how much the core rules are changed.

Considering popularity as a major factor to determine update priority, the situation looks like this:
After Space Marines in their five different flavours, the next in line are Imperial Knights (amazing, for an army that technically consists of only one model), Eldar, Tau and Necrons.
Chaos Space Marines and Daemons are currently not popular armies to play, but they are still one of the biggest factions in the fluff.
Then the horde armies with the big models in between; Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Orks.
Adeptus Mechanicus and Harlequins are newcommers, so that increases their chances for a sooner update.
And then finally, at the very bottom, the dark horses: Dark Eldar and Adepta Sororitas.

Based on this ranking and the most recent updates, my predictions for the next 40k codices to come out is: Chaos, Orks and Necrons, not unlikely in that order.
Dark Eldar could get an update afterwards, UNLESS:
- GW suddenly decides to revive the Adepta Sororitas, giving them priority before Dark Eldar.
- The 9th edition comes out first, in which case GW would probably give vanilla Space Marines, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, Imperial Knights, possibly even AdMech, Eldar and Harlequins, priority before Dark Eldar again.


Now, I'm no Farseer. But I'd say the odds aren't exactly in our favour. Neutral
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Fri Nov 27 2015, 20:38

Wait, why would Chaos or Necrons or Orks get new books? They already have 7th edition books. Neutral
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Fri Nov 27 2015, 20:45

@The Shredder wrote:
Wait, why would Chaos or Necrons or Orks get new books? They already have 7th edition books. Neutral

Because we're in 8th edition now and they are still more "important" than Dark Eldar.
And if GW went by which armies really need updates, Dark Eldar would still be behind the Sisters in line.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Fri Nov 27 2015, 20:57

@Rokuro wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
Wait, why would Chaos or Necrons or Orks get new books? They already have 7th edition books. Neutral

Because we're in 8th edition now and they are still more "important" than Dark Eldar.
And if GW went by which armies really need updates, Dark Eldar would still be behind the Sisters in line.

Oh, sorry, I didn't realise you were talking about 8th.
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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Fri Nov 27 2015, 21:14

A codex tweak I would like to see is a legitimate ccw for our coven HQs. I think the inchor injector has potential, just needs a little buff and a point increase to compensate. It should remain fluffy too. How about poison 3+, (instead of 2+) but can actually go through armour at ap 3. Add lethal dose, all for 30pts?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Fri Nov 27 2015, 21:36

30pts is way too much. Make it AP2 and 25pts.

Then change the name to 'Agoniser'. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Fri Nov 27 2015, 21:40

OK Shredder, fine. Now what about a ccw exclusive to the Heamonculus?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Fri Nov 27 2015, 21:53

@Nariaklizhar wrote:
OK Shredder, fine. Now what about a ccw exclusive to the Heamonculus?

Well, I was thinking of something along these lines for their current weapons:
- Scissorhands have 3+ Poison and gains Shred.
- Mindphase Gauntlet is S10 and wounds against Ld.
- Flesh Gauntlet also 3+ Poison and maybe gains ID all the time, not just on 6s.

Not sure about AP for them.

The thing is though, I'm wondering if this is the best direction. Might it be better if Haemonculus weapons were less about causing damage and more about either debilitating the target or buffing their beasts.

So, you might have a weapon that has poor stats, but applies some sort of debuff on the target model/unit if it hits (e.g. -1T, worse armour save or somesuch). Or, a weapon that grants the haemonculus' unit an extra attack (or maybe Hatred) if it inflicts a wound.

Basically, I'm wondering if some or all of the Haemonculus' weapons should be force multipliers.

Any thoughts?
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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Fri Nov 27 2015, 22:04

Well, I absolutely think they should be more geared to buffing the unit they are in they already have master of pain/ father of pain. They should also be able to take the spirit probe, that would be huge, and it makes sense. I wish fear actually meant something in this game, ATSHNF ruins a lot of cool coven stuff. Maybe give the Injector something that bypasses it, like soulfright?

I like the idea behind the scissor hands BTW, makes sense.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Fri Nov 27 2015, 22:31

@The Shredder wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
Wait, why would Chaos or Necrons or Orks get new books? They already have 7th edition books. Neutral

Because we're in 8th edition now and they are still more "important" than Dark Eldar.
And if GW went by which armies really need updates, Dark Eldar would still be behind the Sisters in line.

Oh, sorry, I didn't realise you were talking about 8th.

No, you are right. I got confused with some of the releases, and we are still in 7th.
I need to re-calculate...

So Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons would be due first, then Imperial Guard, Tyranids and MAYBE Adepta Sororitas, unless the 8th comes out before.
When the 8th edition comes out after the Chaos releases, Grey Knights and MAYBE Adepta Sororitas (ending 7th with Chaos, starting 8th with Anti-Chaos - I can so see GW doing that), Imperial Guard, Imperial Knights (let's be hornets here: If there's an Imperium wave rolling out, Kights will be part of it), Tyranids, Necrons, vanilla Space Marines, Orks, Blood Angels, AdMech and maybe even Harlequins, would all be likely to get updates before Dark Eldar.

If these predictions are correct, 2016 is going to be a long year for us. pale

However, I could see a chance for a Dark Eldar release earlier in 8th: If GW releases a "Khaine's Gate" campaign book (Dark Eldar vs. Dark Eldar with Harlequins vs. Daemons) in the wake of the Chaos-vs.-Imperium wave. It would be the ideal point, before Chaos eventually has to step out of the spotlight again. In that case, Dark Eldar could get a new codex after, MAYBE even before the Imperial Guard (but most definitely after the Imperial Knights).


Last edited by Rokuro on Fri Nov 27 2015, 22:36; edited 1 time in total
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Fri Nov 27 2015, 22:36

@Nariaklizhar wrote:
Well, I absolutely think they should be more geared to buffing the unit they are in they already have master of pain/ father of pain.

Those are pretty pitiful though. I think all Haemonculi should have Urien's buffing 'aura', and Urien should just affect every unit on the field.

@Nariaklizhar wrote:
They should also be able to take the spirit probe, that would be huge, and it makes sense.

That could be interesting.

@Nariaklizhar wrote:
I wish fear actually meant something in this game, ATSHNF ruins a lot of cool coven stuff. Maybe give the Injector something that bypasses it, like soulfright?

Soulfright doesn't bypass ATSKNF, sadly. But, I defnitely think it should.

Assuming Soulfright was changed so that it worked on units with ATSKNF, might it make more sense to put it on the Mindphase Gauntlet?
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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Sat Nov 28 2015, 00:34

Yeah, I knew that soulfright didnt, I just said it wrong. I meant that it should ignore ATSHNF.

How about something like "acidic venom" that causes all close combat poison attacks to reduce opponents armour value by 1. This could be something that could be added to a Heamonculus model for an additional 5 pts
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex tweaks you'd like to see   Sun Nov 29 2015, 12:05

@Nariaklizhar wrote:
Yeah, I knew that soulfright didnt, I just said it wrong. I meant that it should ignore ATSHNF.

Ah. Well, you'll hear no argument from me on that front.

@Nariaklizhar wrote:

How about something like "acidic venom" that causes all close combat poison attacks to reduce opponents armour value by 1. This could be something that could be added to a Heamonculus model for an additional 5 pts

So, is this like the old version of Entropic Strike for Necrons?
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