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Razkien
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PostSubject: Highlander tactics   Thu Oct 08 2015, 15:57

Hello all,

I'm going to a Da Boyz tourney in roughly a month and the rules state we have to bring highlander lists. All allies are "allies of convenience."

I really don't have much / any experience with highlander lists. I've played one practice game so far with a quick list I made up and it wasn't too great. We're only allowed to bring one raider and one venom which hurts a lot and target saturation is going to be an issue, as well as a gimped amount of DL shots.

I'm going to get a list crafted up shortly but I wanted to start a topic in here and see if anyone has any ideas or tactics that might be good to try?

The current list I'm playing around with (will get a full one posted in a couple days to the army list section) has a couple of gimicks that I feel may or may not work, depending on opponents. (I'm not super concerned with winning. Last year I won two, took a draw, and lost two. I'd be happy to land somewhere in that range again... always taking pure DE).

-DS DA Formation
-DS a Grot bomb (I can do up to 8 Grots in total)
--I was thinking of having a Succubus and Archon in this unit. Using some fear bombing shenanigans with the Armor of Misery, AoP. This can work well against Tau, Eldar, Demons, stuff like that but has some obvious shortcomings when fighting SM's and the like. If placed correctly and near the DA formation, you can get -5 LD?
-Few units of Warriors in the back field with a static heavy weapon to try and hold down Obj's. I have to take a unit of Wyches for each unit of Warriors I take. (the lack of available transports is worrying).
-I was going to take an allied Autarch, a WS with a min unit of guys in it just to get an extra vehicle and some reserve manipulation.

As for Anti-Tank stuff
-I'm thinking of leaving the single Ravanger at home and trying to take a DS'ing trueborn unit, and a unit of (probably DS'ing) Scourges.
-Possibly take a Razorwing but I'm not sure if there will be a lot of horde at the tourney. I'm going to have to wait to see how points play out.

I guess my main question right now is do you peeps think the Grot Bomb / DA formation can work out well or is it just a MASSIVE waste of points and I should go in a completely different direction with the army fighting theme? I'm probably going to try to build my list around those two units for the most part.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Thu Oct 08 2015, 16:35

No Battle Brothers and no unit repeats?

In deadly seriousness, do you have any other armies you could bring?
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Razkien
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Thu Oct 08 2015, 17:05

I do not, unfortunately. I just have a boat load of DE models and a bit of 'Nids from that BA / Nid combo box that was released a while back.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Thu Oct 08 2015, 17:21

Is it hardcore Highlander, or the more moderate one.

Some allow unit duplication as long as upgrade choices are different.
Some also allow dedicated transport duplication.

I think a Grot Bomb has...issues. I think the DA would work better for that purpose, with maybe a unit of Grots w. a Succubus maybe with a WWP (or a Raider, if you have no other need for a Raider)

The problem with the Grot Bomb of 8+ is that it is very eggs-in-one-basket. Against some lists it will do fine, but if the enemy has any particular tools for eating Grots (and there are a fair few, ranging from Dreads, to Wraithguard, to any Superheavy walker or MC, to force weapons, et al) then your army will crumple like a cheesecake versus a sandblaster.

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Razkien
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Thu Oct 08 2015, 17:56

Thanks for the input.

It is hardcore rules, no duplicate dedicated transports, no duplicate units except for troops. You can only take a second of any type of troop unit if you have one of each available unit. So if I wanted to take three units of warriors, I'd have to take two units of Wyches.

I was thinking of skimming the Grot Bomb down and possibly running it in a raider. If I take some Trueborn, I'm going to want them in some type of boat. I prefer to put them into Raiders as I feel the extra DL shot has nice synergy with the unit, but putting them in a Venom wouldn't be too bad.

Do you think the DS'ing Grots and DA could work? How do people feel about the whole Archangel of pain bomb thing? Too many points? I've had it work wonders against demons before and I think I could kill off a unit of Tau suits if need be. It is a lot of points though.

P.S.
I def hear ya on the whole "eggs in one basket" thing in regards to the grot bomb. To win a couple of games, I will need to get favorable opponents. I know it's not a good strat to try and rely on getting favorable opponents, but it might be what I have to do.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Thu Oct 08 2015, 18:15

I find the Archangel fairly lackluster in a TAC format, myself.

Grots+Succubus in a Raider is a good unit. Straight up.
They also can work pretty well from reserve, albeit they are a bit slower, though in Highlander format the lack of vehicles could really hurt you.

A possible alternate Trueborn idea to having them in vehicles is to run them with multiple dark lances on foot and deploy them in cover for sniper duty.

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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Thu Oct 08 2015, 20:07

So, Highlander, there can be only one...
This feels weird; a format made to bone spam. I understand why a TO might select this route. The ultimate test of skill and generalship without the fallback of redundant yet efficient units.
Would realspace raiders detachment be your best bet here? Probably most of our effective stuff is in the FA slot after all.  You can biff a bit of everything out there and retain the armies stronget trait: speed.

However, every unit you select would need a specified single job and upgrades to characters may need to be the go. If you bought a unit of kabalites then you'd need mass poison from them with splinter rack raiders for monster removal. The ravager, razorwing JF, scourge, foot trueborn and the DA would be your AT. Reavers could be your swiss army knife unit but are your objective grabbing specialists. Hellions and beasts might get a look in for those duties, too.

Have you got the whole DE range in your collection? Even the Voidraven? The Tantalus?

I think the Dark Artisan bomb is preferable to the grot bomb. Having said that, I don't believe the grot bomb is a complete waste of points either. That many grots in cover will be hard to shift and would be an ideal linebreaker unit.

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Razkien
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Thu Oct 08 2015, 20:23

I have a lot of stuff, but am missing models such as a Voidraven (I actually was thinking about this unit, and thought it might be nice. I don't know if I can afford one before the tourney though) and I also do not have a Tantalus. The Voidraven is on my radar though, and I might pick it up. Seems a bit expensive in terms of points, but I think it might be worth it considering the army restrictions in place here.

Other than that, I'm just missing some Archon Court models and some beasts (that I can think of off the top of my head).

Good points all around though. For some reason the whole "Trubeborn on foot" thing never occurred to me! But I think that's def the way to go with them and free up a boat. I'll def be taking a look at the RRR detachment. I haven't messed with it too much (I play a lot of games were Obj Secured is important) but it might come in handy.

My warriors will probably be going on foot as I can't fit in enough transports to float them around (Except one raider). My hope is to have some back field obj grabbers (we'll see how well that works lol).

I do have some Hellions at my disposal. I may have used them one or two times since I got my DE army a couple of years ago Razz. I'm going to try to craft up a list tonight or tomorrow and get it posted in the list section. I'm hoping to get at least a few test games in before the big day.


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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Fri Oct 09 2015, 02:02

Clear up a few things please.. I don't think dark artisan is allowed since it is a formation. Also iirc there isn't an actual restriction on 'dedicated transports' right? Edit- to elaborate a DT is chosen with the unit (which is what the restriction is on).

Either way I'm thinking you might need to dig into allies for this, or i.e. run eldar as primary since only the primary gets a LoW selection.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Fri Oct 09 2015, 11:45

@DEfan wrote:
So, Highlander, there can be only one...
This feels weird; a format made to bone spam. I understand why a TO might select this route. The ultimate test of skill and generalship without the fallback of redundant yet efficient units.
Would realspace raiders detachment be your best bet here? Probably most of our effective stuff is in the FA slot after all.  You can biff a bit of everything out there and retain the armies stronget trait: speed.

However, every unit you select would need a specified single job and upgrades to characters may need to be the go. If you bought a unit of kabalites then you'd need mass poison from them with splinter rack raiders for monster removal. The ravager, razorwing JF, scourge, foot trueborn and the DA would be your AT. Reavers could be your swiss army knife unit but are your objective grabbing specialists. Hellions and beasts might get a look in for those duties, too.

Have you got the whole DE range in your collection? Even the Voidraven? The Tantalus?

I think the Dark Artisan bomb is preferable to the grot bomb. Having said that, I don't believe the grot bomb is a complete waste of points either. That many grots in cover will be hard to shift and would be an ideal linebreaker unit.

Its just a different play style, kinda like Combat Patrol or Apocalypses.

The Problem is DE is one of the Worst Armies to play Highlander with, the other 3 that aare bad are Knights, SoB and GK's.


Some good units and ways to fill.


1) Scourges: Easy to hide, good movement and amazing Weapons
2) Court: Sslyths: Good firepower and ok melee
3) Grots: Amazing survival and combat
4) Ravager: Dis Cannons IMO would be better, its more versatile in this game mode
5) Both Fliers: Take them as is no upgrade, you most likely will Jink with them once at least, they are good in this game mode b.c other Players wont spam "good" fliers, some armies only have 1 flier a player will even take
6) Talos and Cronos: Both are amazing

I thought Highlander didnt let Formations? The Highlands I've seen didnt let formations. If so then the Formation might be a good choice (or even some Coven formations).

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Razkien
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Sat Oct 10 2015, 05:40

Yes, Scourges will definitely make the the final army list. I have ten, but will probably just take a min unit with lots-o-weapons.

I might pick up the second flyer, just to make my life a bit easier. We'll see on payday, though.

Sslyth might be out the question. They are just crazy expensive. I've almost bought some so many times... but always back out at the last minute. I do really want some though.

-I just double checked the rules, formations are not allowed... I will have to think of something different. Dedicated transports are restricted by the rules as well.

Thanks for all the input. I'm working a graveyard shift tonight and I was going to write up my army list but I forgot my dex's at home -_-

Best regards,
Raz
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Sat Oct 10 2015, 05:58

@Razkien wrote:
Yes, Scourges will definitely make the the final army list. I have ten, but will probably just take a min unit with lots-o-weapons.

I might pick up the second flyer, just to make my life a bit easier. We'll see on payday, though.

Sslyth might be out the question. They are just crazy expensive. I've almost bought some so many times... but always back out at the last minute. I do really want some though.

-I just double checked the rules, formations are not allowed... I will have to think of something different. Dedicated transports are restricted by the rules as well.

Thanks for all the input. I'm working a graveyard shift tonight and I was going to write up my army list but I forgot my dex's at home -_-

Best regards,
Raz

Sslyth are costly, but you are paying for a really strong unit, if you are not good with this unit then dont take them, they req some planning to be used to 100%

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Razkien
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Sun Oct 11 2015, 10:27

So I've been messing around with the list tonight but it's not done yet. I was going to ask a few questions regarding troops as I don't really have any experience with non-transported units.

How do you guys feel about unit size? Do you think it's worth having a couple ten man units in the deployment zone with heavy weapons as a kind of static, backfield holding unit in cover, or, go for full-on minimum units to keep it really cheap? I'm leaning on the side of quantity with the heavy weapon (an extra couple DL's might be nice), but not sure. Five man units are very flimsy... but I guess ten man units are as well lol

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Sun Oct 11 2015, 14:40

Without seeing/making a list it's hard to say in this format but I'd look to fill out every other choice before putting anything into troops beyond minimum compulsory. Start with inherent movement 12" and wwp characters + escort and taper down.

Hmm if anything maybe a large unit of wyches if you need to flesh out the list, accompanied by beasts. I don't think the single DL warrior would be any good but I'm not overly familiar with this type of play.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Sun Oct 11 2015, 15:24

Static is bad with DE.

For troops, there are exactly two options in my book.

1. 5 warriors with a blaster in a dual Splinter Cannon Venom.
2. 10 warriors in a Raider with a Dark Lance (Night Shields, Splinter Racks, Blaster, and Splinter Cannon to taste).

In highlander, I'll add 5 wyches with no upgrades in a Venom, if I must.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Sun Oct 11 2015, 15:47

That would be two Venom already...
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Sun Oct 11 2015, 16:52

@CptMetal wrote:
That would be two Venom already...

No...in hardcore Highlander you go with option 2, and the wyches.  So only one Venom.

(To clarify, I wasn't saying take those two units, I was saying those are the only real troop units TO take. The Wych unit becomes a necessary evil under certain formats.)
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Razkien
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Mon Oct 12 2015, 21:16

I can only take one of each.

I haven't quit decided yet if I want to do the Grot Bomb with WWP Succubus, I'm leaning that way though. If I take the static DL trueborn, that can leave the two ships to my units, if need be.

So are you guys saying just take the very minimum of troop choices? With the lack of target saturation will likely mean anything I field will turn to rubble soon after. I could just take a one gunboat and one venom with five guys and a blaster.  I'm also planning (for the very first time!) using Eldar Allies. My pure DE finally became open minded enough to let them in Razz

I want to take a WS (one more vehicle), Autarch, min troop, and some Warp Spider... (the allies I can take are limited to what my buddy has left over and is not using.)
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Mon Oct 12 2015, 22:18

You can still target saturate with the codex, just not within the troops section. (We've got some nice cheap options elsewhere, too.)
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Razkien
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Mon Oct 12 2015, 22:28

I might pick up a few mandrakes lolol

Use them to infiltrate and be a bugger.

It just feels strange going for 3-4 raiders and 34 venoms a game, a now having these restrictions.
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PostSubject: Re: Highlander tactics   Mon Oct 12 2015, 23:05

I agree. Honestly, Mandrakes move up to solid middle tier in a Highlander format.
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