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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Hellions    Sun Oct 04 2015, 12:14

I still got ten Hellions laying around in boxes and would like to know: do you use them? How could you use them? I thought I could use them as a beast master squad since they are cheaper. What's your experience?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Oct 04 2015, 16:03

Hellions are my favorite model. I love the way they look, I love their fluff, and I'm even trying to figure out how to do Hellion cosplay. I've started several threads on Hellion tactics.

So trust me when I tell you: you can't. They suck. In my opinion, Hellions are the worst units in the game right now. I love experimenting with builds, but nothing I've come up with makes Hellions capable of being able to do more than two things: suck and die.

Beastmasters suck less, but the new rules make it advantageous to take fewer Beastmasters rather than more.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Oct 04 2015, 17:13

Why do they suck? They can unleash a good amount of Splinter fire. And when you take beast masters they even are beasts. Get in cover quickly and shoot the enemy.

And Hellions suck in close combat? Why? Combat drugs can make them effective, right?

Other experiences?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Oct 04 2015, 17:17

Well they are st4 have hit and run, HoW, fleet, and drugs, and a five-man costs only 15 points less than the same number of scourges who have 1 less strength, no drugs or hit and run, 5 more shots, 1 better armour and an invuln save.

Scourges are simply better in every situation except as maneuverable tarpits. So I actually find one unit of them with a helliarch and stunclaw to be decent in the style Jimsolo was discussing in another thread.

I break overwatch on 2 units with an autarch-reaver squad and then charge the hellions into one of them and issue challenges with the Helliarch to protect my Autarch if necessary. They mulch Geq's but so does pretty much everything else in our army, They also tie up meqs and usually survive long enough for hit and run shenanigans. Can't touch TEQ's at all tho.

They are the very first thing I will ever cut.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Oct 04 2015, 17:28

Their range is limited, they can't take advantage of cover without a decent chance of casualties, they can't assault into cover since they lack assault grenades, they have no survivability, no special weapon options on non-characters, aren't Objective Secured, unleash fewer attacks than wyches (another code word for suck), and have no appreciable AP. There is literally no function they can perform which isn't done better by another unit in our codex for a lower relative cost.

Drugs aren't bad, but they're like putting frosting on a fece. They don't make the unit appreciably better. With no way to re-roll the result, there's definitely no consistency.

You've indicated in other threads you don't play competitively and only do friendly, narrative games. If so, Hellions might be for you. If you want to win, they have no place in our army anymore, which is a shame. My fervent hope is that when the next codex drops they'll be the big winners so that GW can sell kits to all the new DE players that never bought Hellions during this cycle.

As a side note, I've heard anecdotally that they absolutely rock on toast in Kill Team games. I dont play kill team, so I can't confirm.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Oct 04 2015, 20:05

Kill team you say? I have to get our local group to incorporate some of those for the campaign.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Oct 04 2015, 20:41

Hellions can be useful in tiny games, but I still prefer kymeara beast units in that situation.  Basically you're trading the kymareas' certainties (more attacks, majority toughness 4, and 5++ save) for a chance to deep strike and combat drugs - both of which are somewhat unreliable.  The hellions do have additional short range firepower and ap5 weapons, but in my opinion that's not enough to compensate for the 30% cost increase and decreased stats.

I magnetized my plastic hellions a while back so I could slap my homemade hellglaives (some wood elf 2 handed ax thingies) on them and turn them back and forth into beastmasters.  I don't think I've fielded them as hellions since then though.

Probably not the path to take with the newer plastics; but I've been converting some older metal ones (with no splinter pods) into jetpack corsairs, simply by swapping the riders with plastic lasblaster/shuriken catapult guardians.  I'm also magnetizing them so I can pull them off the sky boards and mount them on bases to ride in venoms or falcons.

An opponent might gripe that they're taller than the official models, but their increased footprint in my opinion, is at least as much of a disadvantage.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Oct 04 2015, 21:13

I've never had anyone EVER complain about a model being too TALL. GMC's being too short, and incubi/grotesques being too wide/having too big a base is a thing but never too tall.

I like them in kill teams, but prefer Scourges there too, especially if it's HoR rules.
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Mon Oct 05 2015, 01:07

Hellions....

.. Hell -eons..
They're not awesome on the table, they look awesome, but it's a trick. I took them to a tournament weekend before last and they looked really cool on the table, but the best thing about them is their great number of shots and movement.

Where they did good:
20 poisoned shots (edit: I took 10) at 13 points a model isn't bad. They took out a unit of ravenwing bikers in one volley.
They're average chaff. You can use them to assault block, grant cover or hold up an enemy average joe squad (preferably turn 2+)
Combat drugs are great on these guys, they're pretty crappy, for low points, so every little bonus is great
The stunclaw helliarch with 3 base attacks and instant death in a challenge gives a bit of a psychological advantage

Where they did poo:
Their attacks bounce.
They die when they're shot at.
They die in combat.
They die if they trip over a rock.
They die if the wind changes direction.
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Rathian
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Mon Oct 05 2015, 12:14

I love the models too, but on the table they're fragile. I use them as others have suggested; chaff. They can put out a few poisoned shots and tie up enemy units that put other units as higher priority to target earlier on. I run a Beast Pack (Beastmaster and 11 doggies) as a screen with the Hellions behind. Wyches in a Venom close to that too... none of the units are particularly great but all charging at one enemy flank helps concentrate the opponent's mind on them rather than my better, more effective units.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Mon Oct 05 2015, 12:25

But why take them anyway if you could take more effective units? We aren't talking about WWP wraith guard here, so...
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Rathian
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Mon Oct 05 2015, 12:33

Personally, I play informally with a mate. It's competitive for sure, but not the much less forgiving tournament scene, so I can build a fluffier army around models I like and cope with the consequences. My mate has been back into 40k for longer than I have so has Orks, Guard, Dark Angels and Necrons to field for variety! Like I said, I love the Hellions models and in our game setting, they work with background we've created.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Mon Oct 05 2015, 12:46

Have fun and do your worst!
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