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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 09:50

I stumbled across this interview with the Nova open winner and they posted his list on bell of lost souls.

And I must say: I've never experienced a game with this kind of nonsense. My opponents have the decency to built a list that may be tough but that's enjoyable and not.... This. Even in our local tournament. If THAT'S what happens in the big tournaments I never ever want to go there and I can understand the hate towards competitive gameplay.

What's your opinion?

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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 10:26

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If THAT'S what happens in the big tournaments I never ever want to go there and I can understand the hate towards competitive gameplay.


So you understand the hate towards a game style that you do not even encounter?

Quote :
I've never experienced a game with this kind of nonsense.

Makes no sense.

People that attend to these tournaments ENJOY their game.

What you actually CAN do: Now you can begin to understand why people say that DE are NOT competitive.
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 12:18

That seems a sweeping generalization. It's hardly fair to say that every person who goes to tournaments has fun, let alone jumps like a giddy school when they get to face a super friends list they have an infinitesimal chance of hurting.

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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 12:34

If I need to be able to create such stupid boring lists to be counted as "competitive", I have to decline. No thanks. I want to have fun. For those guys it's not about having fun but about winning.

Those guys don't care about fluff or fun, so it doesn't matter whatever army you play. All they care is about winning. You want to play such no fun games with maximum cheese lists? Good. Don't take dark Eldar then. You're playing with death star lovers, they don't want to have a fun game. Sure they will be having fun, but they don't care if you don't have any.

I'm not saying that this kind of style is wrong, but I rather think that those that complain about us not being competitive don't have any reasons to complain. Those lists are without any reason at all despite maxing out the effectiveness. So why do you care if you use a book with the words dark Eldar up front? This crowd already proved they don't care.

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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 12:39

@CptMetal wrote:
I stumbled across this interview with the Nova open winner and they posted his list on bell of lost souls.

And I must say: I've never experienced a game with this kind of nonsense. My opponents have the decency to built a list that may be tough but that's enjoyable and not.... This. Even in our local tournament. If THAT'S what happens in the big tournaments I never ever want to go there and I can understand the hate towards competitive gameplay.

What's your opinion?

https://objectivesecured.wordpress.com/2015/06/26/atc-2015-spotlight-south-australia-space-wolvesdark-angels/

Bear in mind this list is old - the Dark Angels are the 6th ed book.

If anything I think this list is better than the one above.

So because you don't like the idea of allies (ie Nonsense) you have decided its going to not be enjoyable and that there is hate for competitive play?

The main reason you wont see this sort of thing at your local 20 player FLGS event is because you don't build this list for anything other than playing at big tournaments. Also remember what a tournament is...

Definition - (in a sport or game) a series of contests between a number of competitors, competing for an overall prize.

So of course you bring the best list you can - these big events are exactly why you build this sort of list - you are going to compete for the overall prize!

I don't see this sort of list anywhere outside of the biggest or well know events like ETC, ATC or the Aussie Masters

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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 12:49

I have no problems with allies, not even with formations but the same people that complain that 40k isn't balanced turn around and built lists that are purely maximized on effectiveness. You can't tell me that this super friends death star list is in anyway fun to play.

I'd love to have something as a vote for every participant where they can vote for cheesy lists, that creates a ranking that's as important as your result in the actual games.

Or switch to a different game system that enables less extreme variations. Like 30k (I've heard. It's Marine against marine)

And just because there are worse types of lists, this one isn't any better.

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 12:50

What's happening right now has nothing to do with skill during play. Only skill in the list building phase.

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 12:59

If someone attends an event he does not like, he is the only one to blame.
Thats like not wanting to eat chinese food but going to the chinese restaurant anyways while complaining that they serve chinese food and after dinner saying: "I get why people dislike chinese"

Quote :
I want to have fun. For those guys it's not about having fun but about winning.

And you know that because.... only your way of having fun is "true fun" all the others either have "bad wrong fun" or cant have any fun at all because your way is the only way to enjoy the game.
Your attitude sucks man.
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 14:00

No. It's because

1 those types of gamers that are very vocal online claiming that dark Eldar aren't competitive when in fact they mean "not able to built super cheese lists".
2 those type of gamers just care about winning, which is fine in tournaments. But one of those in a casual group can ruin the fun for everyone. It's easy for casuals to just ignore and don't attend the tournaments but the WAAC gamers can ruin the fun for everyone else.

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 14:07

1) Not competitive means not competitive. If you do not play competitive that is fine. But just dont use your metrics as if they are the only ones that count. Again, this is what competitive means. You don't go to F1 racing and complain that their cars are better and they can't possibly have any fun because the only "true fun" is your VW Golf and you are a pretty competitive driver... just no Ferrari cheesemonger.

2) If you are not able to say "no" (an ability that you should have mastered by now) then yes. A single WAAC player can ruin your game. So why do you let him? It is pretty easy "NO THANKS". Problem solved.
So in short. If you go into a game with someone that plays on a gamemode youd o not like say "no". Must pe pretty hard. But blaming someone that he plays stuff you do not like while you agreed to the game is not only stupid it is taking no responisbility at all.

You contradict yourself. On the one hand you claim that you do not run into these people and only play with reasonable guys and suddenly you claim that WAAC tournament players ruin your games.
Still makes no sense.
I would blame the continued existence on WAAC players on people like you. Only on your powerlevel everything is fine, everything else must be WAAC. Only your fun is the right fun, everything else is not fun... because it possibly cant if you would not enjoy it. And if you really happen to play a WAAC player, you remain silent but rant on the internet. Until next week, where you play that guy again and rant on the intrnet again instead of denying him these games.
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 14:37

@CptMetal wrote:
No. It's because

1 those types of gamers that are very vocal online claiming that dark Eldar aren't competitive when in fact they mean "not able to built super cheese lists".
2 those type of gamers just care about winning, which is fine in tournaments. But one of those in a casual group can ruin the fun for everyone. It's easy for casuals to just ignore and don't attend the tournaments but the WAAC gamers can ruin the fun for everyone else.

"those types of gamers"? Really? I guess I might be one of those types of gamers - they type that goes to very competitive events... and wins them on occasion... and yet - I play DE and advocate for them at events. WOW! weird right?

on your point 2 - I can't say what I actually think as I would get a warning or be banned. Basically though - your wrong. I don't just care about winning - except at the very competitive events, where everyone I face tends to be there for the same reason. I run pure harlies, pure khorne daemons (not daemonkin) as well as chaos marines with my mates and enjoy the games just as much. I don't bring venom spam against them either - my beast packs, hellions (!!!) and incubi get table time as well with them. I have NEVER had a pick up game turned down and my casual group plays every week and have never once complained about my lists or gaming. Most are thankful as they pick up new tactics which they otherwise don't face.

Skill in list building is a thing for sure but I can say when you build lists for the shark tank, you also need to be able to swim in the tank without floaties - the best list in the world in the hands of a noob won't win against a well versed and practiced player who builds a strong list they know and understand. List building is NOT everything.

For the record, the list on my blog - which I still say is stronger than the Nova winner - lost 2 of his 5 games at the Aussie Team Champs - both to lists containing 3 imperial knights. This list should slaughter imperial knights with little effort but the player was not familiar with the tactics required and lost 2 games which he should have walked in.

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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 15:13

You're correct Klaivex, one should say no if one encounter such a person in casual games. And no I don't say that I play against those. I never intended to say that.

It's just that tournament players and casual players want something entirely different and whereas casuals can cope with the possibilities of late tournament players use it to create the most powerful army they can think of. And afterwards complain about specific codex being worth a damn. Sound familiar?

Of course tournament players are allowed to have fun at tournaments. Please do! But I also like to attend a tournament once in a while, only local small ones, and got lucky. No such lists. But that's a while ago and I'm afraid that this wouldn't be able anymore. So only with friends I know.

It's about adjusting ones power level to the local meta and seeing such lists and the attached interview make me furious. Someone claiming that he loves to win but is building a list that's so broken that's it's not a challenge anymore. True, if everyone would do it, we're fine, but that's not the same.

Basically, we are playing two different games and as long as we don't mix everything is fine. If the whining online could stop, made by tournament players, I'd be one happy Eldar. It's difficult to achieve balance. What's balance anyway? Ask 5 gamers what combo is too much and you would get 6 different answers. So games workshop doesn't even try. They create a game for friends. To have fun. Internal balancing due to something called common sense or showmanship.

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 15:55

Quote :
Someone claiming that he loves to win but is building a list that's so broken that's it's not a challenge anymore.

So it is so easy? How about you prove your statement and make a topspot in the next international tournament? Should be "no challenge", right?

Quote :
Basically, we are playing two different games and as long as we don't mix everything is fine.

Like in the good old days of apartheit. Because tournament players can't possibly just adjust their playstyle.

Quote :
If the whining online could stop, made by tournament players, I'd be one happy Eldar.

Actually you are the one crying the whole thread. Maybe someone should give you a Nightmare doll to show where the evil tournament player touched you.
Tournament players want their army valid in ANY scenario. That is not unreasonable at all. You are just happy that it is enough for your tiny world. That is a very egoistic point of view.
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 16:30

Oh mate, you're one shining example of decency and know how to talk like an adult by making jokes and ridicule others.

Again: of course tournament players can adept. But they seem to be unable to understand that there isn't something like balance.

I just think it's strange to built cheese listand promote that and afterwards complain that it's not possible to do so with every army. Make up your mind. The army lists exist to give us options. By demanding balance one asks for less possibilities. And this reduces the fun for the non tournament players because those like to have options because they don't abuse those on such a frequent basis. And with abuse I mean the idea to built the strongest list possible.

And I never claimed that it's easy to built those top cheese lists. Again: just follow the discussion and don't assume too much.

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 17:08

I think what you may be missing Cpt Metal if I may, is that the Nova open list you reference was a brilliant piece of list building tailored to the Nova ruleset. It took advantage of a lack of Super heavies and gargantuans, D weapon nerfing, and general rule changes( forge world limits etc.) that made it an "unkillable" death star. As far as a tournament list goes it was brilliant, if I showed up at my local and buddy started placing those units on the board n a pickup game I would probably not bother, its all about context.

Were that list to show up at a standard ITC tournament it would get creamed by a stomping -insert super heavy here- or pwned by removed from play D effects in a standard game. Part of tournament play is list building, a big part, but don't hate the player or the game, just don't play it. No one says you have to or should have to, I love my Dark Eldar and do well with them but If I want to win a Grand Tournament they just cant carry the day.

Play tournaments with comp scores and subjective scoring, enjoy your hobby and recognize the beauty of it- that there is more than one way to play and have fun.

My two cents anyway jocolor

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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 18:15

I understand that it´s a competition and that you can build those list but I agree with CptMetal that I don´t like those list. They ruin the spirit of the game I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 18:20

Oh nice Klaivex let's make jokes about childhood sexual abuse if people disagree with you. Keeping it classy for sure.

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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 19:13

While the "spirit of the game" is nice and all - that's subjective to the individual.

When I play with friends or casually I run fun lists with less optimised choices - I have a significant collection from the last 25 odd years.

But at tournaments - you don't get to complain about spirit of the game - your expectations should be set by a players pack so you know exactly what you are signing up for. If you CHOOSE to attend an event where a player can run 3 detachments in any combination and the event is a generalship focused event with no soft scores or comp scores, what would you expect to turn up list wise?

Expecting people to meet your idea of "spirit of the game" at what is by its very definition a series of contests between a number of competitors, competing for an overall prize is self absorbed and utterly ridiculous.

Should these super lists appear in casual settings? only when both players expectations are the same and the social contract is in place by mutual agreement. At an event - your expectations should be set by the players pack and if you don't like it - don't go.

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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 19:52

But these super cheese lists aren't even part of the competition. If you say that this competition is about a test in skills, it should be two identical armies fighting against each other.

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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 20:34

My reason why I don´t like those list are that I´m much more into the fluff and background of the game as I think that´s 40k strongest side (compare to other games). And of course that never will work with a torunament.

Massen, you are right. At a tournament everyone (or at least most) knows what will happend and propably are ok with it. But I much more love armies that are based on the background. My problem is that this kind of list are becoming more common in regular gaming clubs too. Everyone want to win...
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 20:53

I'm happy that I don't depend on those in store pick up games as most of the players here seem to do.

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 22:22

@CptMetal: I kinda agree with you and I don't. Making what you call 'super-cheese' lists isn't something that happens all at once. You may start with an army that you like because you just do, but if you get wiped out every time it isn't going to be very fun, and it's natural that you're going to go through your codex looking for ways to raise your level. Then someone else gets new rules and you can't beat them with what you have, so you're going to look for ways to raise your level again. When does that cross over the line from 'friendly' to 'cheese', and who says?

Take Venoms: Have you noticed that almost every dark eldar army brings at least 4? Some people would call that cheese. You can say, no, that's not cheese, that's what Dark Eldar do, it's how they're supposed to work, but then you see a list like the one above and you go 'Cheese!' <click!>. Who are you to tell them that their list is cheese but yours is not? Maybe that's how space meringues are supposed to work. Granted, this is an extreme example, but you get the point: who decides where to draw the line?

GW promotes that kind of arms-racing: 'This month: From the deepest bakeries of Mars, the new Megameringue! Immune to all damage, this teleporting construct can wipe out entire armies by itself! Buy two, buy three!' or 'In the new Codex: Tau Empire, the I'w'in Doctrinal formation! Buy it and, erm, you win!' What are you going to tell the people who play those codices? Hey, here's a cool new toy and cool new rules for you: don't use them?

And it all works out well. If the Megameringues fight against the Tau I'w'in formation, or anything from Craftworld Eldar, it balances out and everyone has a great time. The problem arises when every now and then the designers have a change of heart and go, 'Enough party favours! Let's make a no-frills list. Do Hellions really need two attacks?' And these decisions are sometimes driven by the marketing department, who may have decided that they want to focus their resources on promoting craftworld eldar, one aspect of which is to drive dark eldar players to buy them as allies.

But don't blame GW for trying to sell miniatures, which is what they do, and don't blame players for making use of the rules that they are given. I kind of agree that the 'competitive' mentality ruins the game -- any game -- but you're only looking at the most extreme example. There's a whole wide spectrum of casual play that would be considered 'bad' in that environment, and yet is still too much for the dark eldar to handle, unless your opponents agree to 'give you a break', and that's... just not fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sat Oct 03 2015, 22:26

I think we all need to take a deep breath and back away from the personal attacks and inappropriate comments that are pervading this thread. Anymore of these and warnings will be issued. Thank you - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sun Oct 04 2015, 02:04

I get what cptmetal is saying and in a round about way I see it but I don't feel it is the root. Rather it's the players. It's the disconnect between two mindsets and the "why shouldn't I?" Thing.. Mixing optimized powered up lists with casual tends to cause this sort of thing. I've played both sides and which I prefer changes, but I don't feel the skill level changes, just the tools and the rules of engagement. That said the better tournament players I've met are usually very chill very good at the game and less likely to have those episodes.. you know the ones where your grots over perform once and your opponent rants on how OP'd they are.

Unfortunately the issue at hand is probably best sorted out the hard way.. by addressing the gaming group and coming to consensus on how your going to approach pretty much every aspect of the game. If your in the minority and your unwilling to adapt then it's probably time to move on.
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PostSubject: Re: Are tournaments ruining the fun? Nova open winner:    Sun Oct 04 2015, 02:43

Wow.
Turns out I played this guy (and almost this list) in a major tournament recently.

Played 6 games, 5 were fun and great. One wasn't.

Guess which one wasn't? And what's even funnier, is that the reason it was not fun was because of the PLAYER, not the LIST.

I even wrote up a battle report about it.

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