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 KDK with CSM allies help please

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sat Sep 26 2015, 17:10

I have a campaign match coming up. I'll be at 1300 points and he will be at 1200 points. I know he has a Heldrake that he is likely to use and quite probably 3 Obliterators. Any hints on what to take please?
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sat Sep 26 2015, 17:16

You can mitigate his obliterator by jinking (NS will help with that). Once he deepstruck them, they are dead. Poison shots will take care of them.

The helldrake is a real problem because DE don't have a response to that beast. Your best option is to MSU (go warriors in venoms rather than 10 men squads in raiders). It can kill max 2 units per turn, less if you spread out.

I would go with mass venom with haywire scourge to support them and take care of potential land raiders/Daemon engines.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sat Sep 26 2015, 17:35

Razorwing or void raven with lances. That's the only thing I can think of. But you'll need 2-3 flyers.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sat Sep 26 2015, 17:56

Poison shots vs 2+ Saves are not good .....

I don't think I have any reliable way of killing a Heldrake unless it lands and that's not my choice.
Because of this I'm thinking that running people inside transports at all is a bad idea.

I'm thinking 5 Venoms (2x 5 man Kab squads deployed outside the Venoms to hold objectives), 3 Ravagers (1x Dissie Rav and 2x DL Ravs). I don't know whether a Razorwing is a good idea or not, or whether I should just take more Venoms.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sat Sep 26 2015, 18:45

Not only one but two Razorwing and perhaps an additional void raven. There should be some missiles that can really hurt the Obliterator squad...? I don't have our codex at hand at the moment.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sat Sep 26 2015, 19:24

Our poison is often very good against 2+ armor, because we can throw a f--kton of it.

I think your outline looks good (and probably similar to what I would recommend). There's very little you'll be able to do against the Heldrake, except ignore it (or possibly throw Snap Shots at it if you have nothing else to shoot). Personally, I wouldn't get the warriors out of the Venoms until they get shot out (you can always reposition them to a better firing spot with their transport, then Flat Out back to the Objective once any threat has been eliminated).

I would be inclined to eschew the Razorwing for other things, personally.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sat Sep 26 2015, 20:01

If he uses a Drake and 3 Obliterators you are pretty save with a more "standard" list as he spends a lot of points on only 4 models (we are talking about around 400 points.. thats 1/3 of his army).
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sat Sep 26 2015, 20:03

Thanks for the help people Smile
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sat Sep 26 2015, 21:12

KDK is a MSU rush list by nature. If he's playing to the books strengths I would expect lots of walkers, hounds, drakes, daemons. Melee focused NOT a lot of ranged firepower, what he does have will likely come from the CSM side.

Heldrakes lost the 360 shooting so its actually pretty limited although still a good unit but better vs meq than us. Out maneuver it ideally. Its also rear armour 10 and can't fire its template if it jinks. It has a 5++ inherently but you can still force jinks with lances so a razorwing is actually a consideration here although not necessary IMO.

I'd suggest disi cannons for your anti meq/teq. So many DE players seem to avoid taking these but they are nightmarishly good against meq. I'd probably take 1 DC ravager at least although you do want sufficient AT in this match too.
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Xalopec
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sat Sep 26 2015, 23:18

Lances crack the 2+ and insta kills the obits.

Though a Rasorwing is not very good as anti air, the Lances may make him nervous and let him jink the Drake.

Considered an aegis or bunker with an aa gun?
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sun Sep 27 2015, 00:06

Quote :
Lances crack the 2+ and insta kills the obits.

As Obliterators are not part of KDK and he has to ally them in I expect them to have MoN.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sun Sep 27 2015, 11:57

Yeah I wouldn't run oblits without MoN.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sun Sep 27 2015, 13:21

Can't take fortifications. What is "MoN"?
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sun Sep 27 2015, 13:36

Mark of Nurgle for toughness 5 Obliterator...
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sun Sep 27 2015, 13:37

Mark of Nurgle (+1 T)
Also if he does uses an allied detachment (in additon to KDK) he has to have 2 HQs which are also quite costy in such a smallish game.

I would probably expect him to have a CSM CAD (HQ + Drake + Obliterators, probably Cultists as cheap troop) and a KDK Formation (Gorepack -> Bikers + Hounds)

So 1200 points could look like this:

CAD: Chaos Space Marines
1x Khorne Lord on Juggernaut, Axe of blind Fury, Sigil of Corruption
2x10 Chaos Cultists
1x Obliterator, MoN
1x Obliterator, MoN
1x Obliterator, MoN
1x Heldrake, Baleflamer

Formation: Gorepack
3x Bikers, 2x Melta, Champ with Kombimelta
3x Bikers, 2x Melta, Champ with Kombimelta
5x Fleshound
5x Fleshound
5x Fleshound
5x Fleshound
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Sun Sep 27 2015, 15:14

Perfect. Thanks guys Smile
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Tue Oct 06 2015, 13:05

This has changed slightly. It's now 1300vs1300. The mission is purely Kill Points and no objectives with no secondaries. 1 point for every unit killed. You also get to choose a "Leader unit", this leader unit get D3 points for every unit it kills, but gives away D6 if killed itself.

I can't decide whether to go MSU and just try and kill more than him (my normal style of play), or to go with a few mini death stars.

If I were to go the Death Star route, I unfortunately I don't have the models for the obvious choice here, the CtC .... But I was thinking Dark Artisan (Leader unit?), a large Grotesquerie (2x 5 man squads with Aberrations) and a minimum Scalpel Squadren, what do you guys think?
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Tue Oct 06 2015, 13:57

Sounds good for me. But the corpse thief would've been perfect! Too bad.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Tue Oct 06 2015, 15:07

@Hellstrom wrote:
This has changed slightly.  It's now 1300vs1300.  The mission is purely Kill Points and no objectives with no secondaries.  1 point for every unit killed.  You also get to choose a "Leader unit", this leader unit get D3 points for every unit it kills, but gives away D6 if killed itself.

I can't decide whether to go MSU and just try and kill more than him (my normal style of play), or to go with a few mini death stars.

If I were to go the Death Star route, I unfortunately I don't have the models for the obvious choice here, the CtC .... But I was thinking Dark Artisan (Leader unit?), a large Grotesquerie (2x 5 man squads with Aberrations) and a minimum Scalpel Squadren, what do you guys think?
Wow its gonna be a blood bath, sounds fun. CTC would be ideal to double dip on KPs but I think the grots will work out nicely too. ID weaponry for multi wound units like hounds and agonizers for meq. I'd still recommend MSU for the rest. You want to match his predictable MSU. Bring plenty of dark light since that army can put down more nasty walkers than anyone plus they double out multi wound models which they have plenty of too. Unfortunately if he does spam walkers your grots are gonna be in a hard way so I'd anticipate prioritizing them highest on the kill list.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Tue Oct 06 2015, 16:13

Quote :
This has changed slightly. It's now 1300vs1300. The mission is purely Kill Points and no objectives with no secondaries. 1 point for every unit killed. You also get to choose a "Leader unit", this leader unit get D3 points for every unit it kills, but gives away D6 if killed itself.

If this was his idea i would expect a deathstar unit.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Tue Oct 06 2015, 17:38

It's not his idea, but he does also know the game type ... After reading a bit, I'm a bit worried that he'll just turn up with a Bloodletter and a Daemon Prince or 2 and just wipe me out if I try and take our "strong units" .... Don't know what to do !!! I'm thinking I might be better off just trying to shoot from range and hide a lot once I'm in front.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Tue Oct 06 2015, 18:30

Do you know his collection or his usual setups?

With this mission rules I (as a KDK player) would probably stay away from my usual "in your face!" MSU rush list and try to focus on models that are hard to remove as a DE player.

In my mind this would be Soulgrinders, Heldrakes, Maulerfiends and Skull Cannons.

List could look like this:

CAD:

1x Bloodthirster

8x Bloodletters w Bloodreaper
8x Bloodletters w Bloodreaper

1x Heldrake w Baleflamer
1x Heldrake w Baleflamer
1x Chaos Rhino


1x Soulgrinder w Phlegm
1x Soulgrinder w Phlegm
1x Maulerfiend w Tentacles
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: KDK with CSM allies help please   Tue Oct 06 2015, 18:32

That looks 100% terrifying ............. I only know he has Obliterators and a Heldrake. Not much use.
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