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 Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics

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Archon Rievect
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PostSubject: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sat Sep 19 2015, 18:15

Greetings fellow Dark Kin, I will be facing an Eldar player using the the Dk- has D weapon CCW+Shield..

We are using the ITC rules so at least he cant use the damn flyer that gets the 2++ when jinking Rolling Eyes He will be using Dark Reapers so I cant jink  Mad   and have to rely on cover and FF/NS Rolling Eyes against that unit-needless to say they need to DIE fast...

My big concern is the Wraith Knight-GC..... and the rules for the Reaper and the Lhamaean attacks.. can anyone post the stats for the WK for me? Dont have the codex....

Reaper -Vortex beam rules says 'ID on a roll of 5+ regardless of toughness, also concussive' BUT instead of frying its soulstone /tazing it ,it only causes 1 wound!????

Regarding Poison-- I know 4+ goes to 6+ Evil or Very Mad  BUT have the following issue-

Lhamaean- poison on 2+-now 6+(I say BS make it 4+ if following the same reason for 4 to 6) also the rule of 'wound of 6 causes ID' ......
...SO going by the rules IF I go nutty and try to assault this thing with 7-10 Lhamaeans with 21-30 attacks hit on 4's and luck out on 6's I would get 1 WOUND per 6roll AND with the combo or ID on 6 maybe kill it? assuming he rolls bad on saves(doubtful, swear his dice are loaded) and I roll REALLY good(doubtful,my dice like to betray me)

I think I can deal with the rest of his army-bikes,fire prisms,etc............ then again he loves his damn psychic crap(I say that crap needs to be toned down)-guide fortune,war,etc ....
Also  the retooled/retarded heavier weapon options,swooping hawks that intercept(no good against WWP thank god but in general way better than my scourges Mad again GW BS), bikes that each mount shuriken cannons,etc etc.......

I may also get totally tabled...... makes me wonder why I even play the game anymore......was hoping i would NOT have to play this guy in this campaign....

Below is my pure DE list, my choices are limited to what I have and what may be effective.. I was trying to get as decent amount of AT as possible and some AI that may be able to do some light vehicle damage.......

KABAL OF THE WITHERED SOUL

HQ- 535pts
Archon- Kabalite Armor+Clone field + Blaster + Agonizer + WebWay Portal + Haywire Grenade(8” range) -------------160pts

Court of Archon Retinue-145pts
7x Lhamaeans- Kalbalite Armor + Splinter pistol+ Shameian Blade
70pts
3x Medusae - Kabalite Armor+ Eyeburst
75pts
Tantalus – 2 Pulse Disintegrators, Enhanced Aether Sails, Armor 12, FlickerField(5+INV), Night Shields(stealth),Scythevanes
230pts

Elite-345pts
Incubi x5- 100pts, Klaive
+ Venom Transport  w/2 x Splinter Cannons + Flickerfield (5+inv)- 65pts
Trueborn x 5- 4 x Blaster (60pts) =115 pts
+ Venom Transport w/2 x splinter cannons =65pts

Heavy Support- 145pts
Reaper- Fast open topped skimmer, Armor 11
Weapon-Storm Vortex Projector-
Blast- 24"
Beam- 36"
Equipment- Enhanced Aethersails, Night Vision, Flicker field, Night Shields

Troops- 425pts
Squad#1-  10 Warriors- 80pts, Kabalite Armor,8x Splinter Rifles(4+), 5+sv
                1X Warrior w/ Splinter Cannon, 1 x Warrior w/Blaster = 105pts
+ Raider w/Dark Lance+ Splinter Racks(twin link all splinter weapons) = 75pts

Squad#2- 10 Warriors, 9 x splinter rifles(4+) 1x Dark Lance Kabalite Armor -100pts

Squad#3- 10 Warriors, Kabalite Armor,9 x Splinter Rifles(4+), 5+sv
                , 1 x Dark Lance = 100pts

Squad#4 – 5 Warriors (40 pts) + 1 x Shredder(5pts) = 45pts
               
Fast Attack-400pts
Scourges#1- 5(80pts), 4 x Dark Lances(80pts) - 160pts
Scourges#2- 5(80pts), 4 x Haywire Blaster(40pts), -120pts
Scourges#3- 5(80pts), 4 x Heat Lances(40pts)   -120pts


Thank you fellow Archons/Succubi/Haemonculi for the valuable inputs Cool

Due to IP infringement (and forum rules), please do not post the entire stat line of individual units or weapons, nor the point costs of specific upgrades.  As another denizen already mentioned, most people know the various costs and effects and they are not needed for list discussions.

The offending naughty bits have been professionally expunged.  Thanks, Gob.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sat Sep 19 2015, 21:49

Okay, nobody can post the stats of the Wraithknight cos, you know, copyright etc.

ID on Gargantuan creatures causes D3 wounds rather than killing it outright.

Poison (of any potency, whether it's 4+ or 2+) wounds on a 6.

Lhameans therefore cause D3 wounds for each to wound roll of a 6 but the WK gets it's normal 3+ save (but not FNP).

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Archon Rievect
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sat Sep 19 2015, 22:38

Hi Count, ok well that clarifies the wounding thing because I had been reading that ID translates to either D3 wounds in some circles to ID causes but a single wound... so I guess a tactic I can use would be to hopefully nail it with the Reaper and cause a wound and therefore it also suffers 'concussion' so it reduces its initiative to '1'... bum rush it with the Tantalus riding Lhamaeans an hope for a great CC round... that would surely be a victory... Twisted Evil cheers

I could live with D3 wounds for every wound inflicted..... I guess the Reaper would also cause D3 wounds on it on a 6 because of an 'on a 6 it is ID-ed'

now have to go try looking up the stats to confirm I actually have a chance....
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sun Sep 20 2015, 09:29

If you are playing ITC the lhamean cant hurt it. In the ITC FAQ if the Str of an instant death attack isn't high enough to normally wound the Gargantuan creature it is unaffected and un wounded. So at Str3 vs T8, youre sadly out of luck.

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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sun Sep 20 2015, 09:37

Poison as std moves to a6, if the itc says my poison can't hurt it I can't find that statement...can you post a link please...if this is true then none of my poison can touch it and I may as well not play him..dl,blaster,etc not reliable enough and I don't have enough shots...
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sun Sep 20 2015, 14:19

You probably shouldnt post stats of units, anyway most of the people here remember them and weapon profiles, at least when it comes to DE.

You might want to consider Grotesques squad, if you give abberation agoniser or scissorhands you can threaten WK, if you'l accompany it with Archon with Ago+Shadowfield you might even tank some of its atacks.

Also Harlequins, carreses do the wounding, kisses do ID on 6s.

I dont like your Scourge load outs - too diverse. Also dont like foot warriors.

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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sun Sep 20 2015, 15:38

Seer council with singing spears in a raider with an archon or two with Shadowfields and the armor of misery. Roll one Farseer as Fate and the other as Telepathy. Fortune will give you a 2++/4++ with the archons tanking, Psychic Shriek will give you several wounds with the WKs Ld reduced to 7. (Potentially as low as 3 if Horrify and Terrify also get into play.) Shrouding and Invisibility (plus a Raider with Night Shields) will increase your survivability long enough to get into CC, where the Fleshbane weapons can do their jobs.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sun Sep 20 2015, 16:44

Archon Rievect- We really don't have an efficient way of dealing with GMCs outside of allies. The good news is when its tooled for combat its effectiveness against our preferred MSU style is pretty diminished.

The bad news is your list is pretty soft honestly and not designed for MSU so it has some really legit targets for him.

First, I'd realize your facing what sounds like a much more powerful list than your own, even a weak version of a tournament worthy list. I know your limited in models but I would look to tighten up the list and reduce costs on most of your units to limit the impact of his WK, not to mention spreading your threats around. Get more transports lose the FW rides and reduce the archons cost. 160 without a SF is crazy.

The main stats you need to worry about on the WK are t8 w6 3+/5++/fnp.. and no significant ranged presence. In your case I'd try and avoid giving it any attention. If he's not overly familiar with the thing you can probably diminish its impact by baiting bad deployment and kiting it some. It doesn't have fleet so consider leaving units at the fringes of his charge range with some discreet nonchalant measuring, say 9.5" ish (span of my hand finger to thumb). His success rate will be around 8% but you might bait him into attempting it and failing.

Not very good advice I know but the alternative, building to try and kill it with pure DE, is worse.

Lastly I have mentioned elsewhere (jokingly) about hitting a WOUNDED WK with 10 lhamaeans. Might get that magical christmasland moment.. but I wouldn't count on it. Most likely you'd just feed him a squad. Make him work for those assaults instead while you play the mission and kill his other units.

Thats what I got.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sun Sep 20 2015, 18:35

Brom's right, ignore the WK, it should only be able to kill one unit per turn. therefore maximise number of units and or reduce cost of units and you defang the dreaded WK. (WK are only good for killing big things such as IK and other LOW units etc)

you really need to nutrilise the dark reapers though, they'll kill / down a transport a turn. althought a DS venom with medusea should be able to sort them out in a single turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sun Sep 20 2015, 19:49

Appreciate the replies and here are my comments-

1-went over ITC FAQ updated 9-11, still dont see any reference to poison not wounding on a 6...from 4+

2-IF I had other models-Harlies,wracks,grots- I would try using them....at least Harlies.. I am not a coven player and grots/taloi are too slow for me.
  My Scourge load out reflects the experience I have in putting my eggs in one basket and the units have specific missions...unfortunately as I said, I dont have any other way to get a bunch of Dl in a sincle unit-like a ravager- plus usually my scourges seem to weather shots pretty well and I dont lose all the DL to a single las cannon,etc... the HWB are kind of a AT and if needed an impromptu AI , I have never tried the heat lances, people seem to like them, figure they will be used for popping termies,other units with 2+/x++ saves, MC, Bikes Speeders,etc. like I said,this will be the first time I use them.. really wish other units besides Scourges could get HWB and HL... at least that would help with our crap AT....

3- The Tantalus and the Reaper have been doing actually pretty well for me ... Tantalus lives about 90% of time since its weapons are not considered a big threat....and its AV12 has been pretty resilient with its saves also helping.
Reaper usually makes it points back in vehicle damage or fries an IC or helps with reducing initiative down to 1 ...helps with the ccw.

4-regarding the foot troops... I am torn between 5 warriors w/1 blaster in a venom..granted lots of poison but 1 18" AT chance...Venoms SC and it zooming around usually mean my venoms get an inordinate amount of fire tossed at them and they go down pretty fast.. trust me I have like 7 venoms I can run but unless they are filled with 4x blasterborn or 2x Blaster/2SC i just get hammered too much too often. so since I am trying to stay away and in cover I am trying to blob in cover and set up to interlock the DL firepower ...the 5 man warrior with the shredder is bait.....

5- Hoping the warriors and raider can do a sweep and the splinter racks really help out on the hits and the Blaster born can do something to the fire prisms....

6- Yea the Incubi were a do i/dont i...quandary...... decided to take them maybe drop in cover near an objective or help out with ccw... probably should have subbed another blaster born instead....

7- Archon-yea..$$$$ going to try the wwp out for the first time, usually use him more for AT than CCW...... stupid crud no AP2 ccw means worthless in CCW to me but if needed at least agoniser gives hope...... Sick and tired of crap CCW options .. WHY no version of Witch blade? Venom Blade SHOULD be poison 2/ID 0n 6 or at least poison 2 ap 2--- OR make the damn HuskBlade +1ST..
I usually run the SF...and my dice betray me after 3 rolls...going to try clone field(actually wish it was the old style OR the fan codex one from another thread--D3 clones,whittle down,roll another d3,etc.. much more fun and surviving-going to try in a friendly game)

I cant blow $$ on Harlies, tons of Ravagers,wracks etc.... Have a razorwing-- USELESS every time I play it so it is shelved( I may even burn it AND the dice)... so stuck with what I have....

Basically I am stuck at this point with the list because the campaign has begun-cant change once lists submitted.... so will have to see... will post the results of the game...

My other opponents will be BA,Iron Warriors,Nids Ithink.....

Maybe I should have run my SOB's, won last campaign with them...and NO allies! Tough fights some of them but did it....some people HATE my SOB's...

I guess bottom line is I like to play fluffy according to background,books,etc armies... I have said before I do not like allies unless totally needed,not a crutch JUST to play at not even a tournie 'power player level' ...I gave up big tournies long ago, power player hell, NOT fun.......
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sun Sep 20 2015, 21:38

Quote :
1-went over ITC FAQ updated 9-11, still dont see any reference to poison not wounding on a 6...from 4+
Poison overrides or should I say doesn't conflict with the ITCs ruling on ID which is what it's really addressing. Still only wounds on 6s vs GMCs but the ID remains intact and does ignore FNP so there's that I guess. You lucksack into a grip of 6s and he fails 2 it could be over if your rolling hot. Much more viable if you were straight spamming dark light to bring it down to a few wounds first. I could see your unit knocking off 2-3 but 6..

Since your list is set I don't really see what more we can offer. Apply the strategy mentioned above to your list as best you can. You could always play up your lhamaeans "crazy good luck with 6s" true or not and just try and get in his head with your instant death bypassing FNP talk. Might make him play reserved with his knight making it worthless.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Sun Sep 20 2015, 23:43

Well I will use this as a learning experience and tactical /strategy class... hoping I can distract him,circle around,kill his dark reapers ,stick to mission much as possible, kill off his troops.. if I can shoot at the WK from a couple directions to force him to choose and keep out of charge range I may pulll it off..... I should have basic results come friday....
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Mon Sep 21 2015, 17:25

Have any of you tried reavers against WK? Rending is autowound now and AP2. I know that thats needs 36 hits but in combination with cultrops and some Venoms then it should be doable.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Mon Sep 21 2015, 22:28

Are the stomps strength D? If so it's important to remember that only the models under the blast can be hurt. Wording for D causes wounds to the model, not to a wound pool, thus a squad of well anything really, ought to be able to tie it up in CC for a turn or two.

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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Tue Sep 22 2015, 00:00

Stomps aren't D weapons.

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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Tue Sep 22 2015, 00:15

Technically true, but for most purposes they might as well be.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Tue Sep 22 2015, 01:50

@Archon Rievect wrote:
Appreciate the replies and here are my comments-

1-went over ITC FAQ updated 9-11, still dont see any reference to poison not wounding on a 6...from 4+

As previously stated by myself and others it isn't about the poison, its about the instant death. My apologies if I wasn't clear on that, I blame the medication.  Laughing

ITC FAQ, under universal special rules. point 8.

ITC FAQ wrote:
Unless specified otherwise, attacks that cause Instant Death on a To Wound roll of 6 still need to be able to wound the target model for Instant Death to be inflicted (e.g. a S4 attack cannot hurt a T8 model even if the attack causes Instant Death on a 6).

So you could wound the wraithknight, but as your strength is not high enough to wound it without poison you cannot cause the d3 wounds for instant death on a gargantuan-goes the same for force weapons that are under strength, Str5 required vs T8.

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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Tue Sep 22 2015, 03:22

If you had Furious Charge, would that give you a high enough S? I can't remember the T of a WK.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Tue Sep 22 2015, 05:05

You need Strength 5 to wound him on 6 at least.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Tue Sep 22 2015, 07:15

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
@Archon Rievect wrote:
Appreciate the replies and here are my comments-

1-went over ITC FAQ updated 9-11, still dont see any reference to poison not wounding on a 6...from 4+

As previously stated by myself and others it isn't about the poison, its about the instant death. My apologies if I wasn't clear on that, I blame the medication.  Laughing

ITC FAQ, under universal special rules. point 8.

ITC FAQ wrote:
Unless specified otherwise, attacks that cause Instant Death on a To Wound roll of 6 still need to be able to wound the target model for Instant Death to be inflicted (e.g. a S4 attack cannot hurt a T8 model even if the attack causes Instant Death on a 6).

So you could wound the wraithknight, but as your strength is not high enough to wound it without poison you cannot cause the d3 wounds for instant death on a gargantuan-goes the same for force weapons that are under strength, Str5 required vs T8.

BUT.... poison is not treated the same as regular STxx weapons or the models strength since it is treated kind of like a no AP power weapon..but some ways better.....i intend to write the characters who are doing up the ITC rules regarding this... meantime I am running this by the guy in our club since he organized these shenanigans........

I wonder how they came to their conclusion, this is the kind of bs that pisses me off... I can see cannot ID the thing on a 6.. ok fine, wounds on a 6-up from 2- but the special rule of 'lethal dose' ID on a 6-and apparently only on GC and not MC's(?) is totally negated ,completely...wtfh...... in that case they may as well STATE 'models without the strength to wound the model normally CANNOT wound it PERIOD'...... not this gibberish BS.......
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Tue Sep 22 2015, 17:01

Huh? That isn't what the rules say.

A S3 model with a Poisoned weapon (4+, 2+, what have you) can still wound a GC with a T8 on a roll of 6. They just can't get the ID effect off on a 6.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Tue Sep 22 2015, 17:19

I don't get it. My poison wounds him only on a 6 and my weapon rules say that a wound roll of 6 means instant death. So I only can do instant death attacks...
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Tue Sep 22 2015, 17:33

Except that, because of your strength, your ID does not go off. So, a wound roll of 6 still causes a wound, just not an ID wound.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Tue Sep 22 2015, 18:10

But that's the weapons rule!
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PostSubject: Re: Facing a Eldar WK/LOW/D----need a bit of clarification on some specs..maybe tactics   Tue Sep 22 2015, 22:44

And the ITC FAQ overrides it.
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