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 Are beastpacks valid option?

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Duke Daedric
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PostSubject: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 10:16

I was speculating on getting me some beastmasters and beasts for my darkkin army.
'Am fully aware that they are not the best choice in our codex, but for MSU builds - cheap fast beastpack has it's uses I reckon.
The thing IS I've never used them before.... so.. advice is appreciated. Wink
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RCZ
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 10:19

mmmmh i dont like them.
I prefer MSU shooty and slow talos or grots for tarpit/moshpitting.
I feel the fear to see the beasts die before do anything useful.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 10:27

I was a big fan of the beastpack in 5th and 6th edition but the new codex killed it off as a decent option, with the removal of the Baron, reduction in the maximum unit size and general nerfing of the beasts themselves. You might manage to get some use out of them in an MSU list but in order to be anything other than a minor distraction they will need to be quite big units and that goes against the MSU principle.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 12:48

Although it's unlikely, if you have free FA slots they can rock on toast. Single man units are great ways to fill point holes.

If you wanted to go unbound you could field hundreds of units in a 1k-2k list.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 12:59

A pt Beastmaster on his own is a decent way to fill in points, but then so is a 25pt Beastmaster with a Power Weapon.
The only strength I see in the unit is to fill out points with Beastmasters, or make small units of Khymerae to act as bullet shields for ICs. If you take a Haemonculus for example, putting him in a unit with Khymerae is a good way to give him meat shields to let him survive a little longer (and cause Fear if playing non-Marines). Of course this would depend on the guy being on his own and not in a better unit, but if you have a character who needs really good survivability, a mass of 5+ invulns t get through is a decent option at only 10pts each.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 13:00

I must be playing a different game to you. Very Happy

I never have points left over to attempt to fill. I'm almost always wishing I could find ways to trim more points and fit in the rest of the stuff I actually want!

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 13:32

Me too, usually! If I do have a points hole to fill, it's usually a bit larger than a one man beast pack. If it's between 36 and 63 pts, I'd rather take Mandrakes, and if it's higher than 63 I'd just as soon take a unit of Reavers.
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Xalopec
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 15:41

Units of one clawed fiend were OK. Tough enough not to get shot by a stormbolter from a pod yet too cheap to be a good target for a "real" unit. And they can pick on 5 scouts or a rhino or something like that.

Or some things I have not tried yet:

Khymera with an Autarch on a bike with a Lance and a banshee mask to deny overwatch.

Khymera as a meat shield for a faarseer on a bike. With fortune or hammerhand they may be quite nice.

Khymerae and / or beast masters to bubble wrap my Army against deep stikers.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 19:01

Out of curiosity- anyone tried a full assault list yet? Beasts, grots, incubi, wyches, reavers, etc?

I know armour is an issue but I was thinking hwg corsairs. Or just spec weapon trueborn. They do have at least 2A.
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Xalopec
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 19:48

Tried grotesquerie with 2x 4 Grots and urien in an Incubi unit to give them fearless and to tank overwatch. Then 4 Sslyth and rest reavers. Was OK but you really get stuck in dreadknights, maulerfiends or this season walker thing that looks like a retarded defiler.
Turn 1 you turboboost in the enemy's face, turn 2 you attack. Unfortunately you don't have enough shooting to take out those targets in one turn. Think less assault and more anti tank shooting would have been better.

At least that was my experience.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 22:39

@aurynn wrote:
Out of curiosity- anyone tried a full assault list yet? Beasts, grots, incubi, wyches, reavers, etc?

I know armour is an issue but I was thinking hwg corsairs. Or just spec weapon trueborn. They do have at least 2A.

I've done all Covens lists from time to time. I do okay. (The most recent was against the worst IG player I've ever encountered. I tried to build a list that couldn't win; still did.)
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 15 2015, 23:01

I ran the full beast star last edition and this edition I've ran multiple versions of beasts. So far my favorites have been single clawed fiends and units of 11-12 khynera with 1 or 2 being bm's respectively (2 depending on if I expect barrage).

Aurynn I've ran a full assault list with all those units, it kicked ass actually.

When I've run the full packs it's been 3 units because that's all I own, supported by other assault elements and minimal shooting. It's better than it looks especially with decent cover. They are t4 daemons for 10 pts after all which is damn solid. 3 works well enough for saturation, clogging board space, assaulting mech etc and generally taking longer to die than 110 pts would imply but I think 2 units would do ok too. 1 probably not so much.

Lone fiends I've been running for awhile. They fit certain lists better than others and what was said above is accurate. I take them to go 'underneath' lists that we can't match well against with normal tactics like skyhammer but also eldar bikes and mech battle companies. They threaten bikes enough to attract fire and can win combat sometimes or simply camp. They will also reliably take 1 hp from anything av10 rear, sometimes even kill one outright. They are straight outclassed by lictors though. They also make great infiltrators if you roll 3 on strategic to push back your dz or scouts plus they allow you to do a pseudo null deploy vs certain common strategies due to the weaponry those lists tend to pack.

All that said your trading firepower for bodies so you need to build it right rather than just plug and play.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Wed Sep 16 2015, 09:48

Is there anything plug and play about DE? :-)
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RCZ
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Wed Sep 16 2015, 10:16

^
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Rathian
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Sat Sep 19 2015, 17:38

I'm wary of leaving my nice units as bullet magnets so invested in a beastmaster with a dozen devil dogs (ok, I converted a spare Hellion and a mate was getting rid of a whole pack of Fenrisian Wolves...) and I use them as a living shield with Hellions following up. Yes they got shot to bits, but it buys time for the real nasties behind to get a little closer and for the Power From Pain to ramp up a bit.

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Tue Sep 22 2015, 22:10

As per above.  Beast packs were awesome and fluffy in the last codex, but pretty much useless now.  I still have a bunch and use them occasionally, but only kymareas and beast masters.  Razorwings took such a hit that they might as well have removed them from the book entirely, and I've never really been a fan of fiends; but that's especially true now that grotesques fill much of the same role with more options and in a less competitive slot.

Kymareas lost some of their invulnerable save but their statline (and unit type) is still awesome for the price.  Beast masters themselves aren't bad at 10 points and you need them anyway for leadership.  I usually take 1 per 5 kymarea mainly for redundant leadership, but it is fun plinking off those random splinter shots before charging.

All that said, a unit of Beastmasters and kymarea can be a ghetto death star in very low point games (5-700) and can also fill gaps when you don't know what to do with an odd amount of leftover points.  I've surprised more than one player by glancing their fancy tank to death with 60 points worth of beasts that were pretty much ignored crossing the field.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Wed Sep 23 2015, 10:10

I used to love running a big beast unit across the table as a distraction/bullet sponge in our last dex.

In our current dex GW decided they needed a good beating with the nerf bat because... reasons! They also compete with the clearly superior reavers, scourges and razorwing.

Sad really but thats GW for you. Rolling Eyes
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Wed Sep 23 2015, 10:15

I experimented with a Khorne Daemonkin list the other day and ran something reminiscent of my old Beaststar - 15 Flesh Hounds with a Khorne Herald on Juggernaut! Ah memories...

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Wed Sep 23 2015, 11:11

Aye... im leaning to Khorne too nowadays. Your army is nearly as fast as the DE, you have a better PfP table and your army is not so vulnerable despite having next to no armor while still obliterating things in melee.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Wed Sep 23 2015, 12:25

The breast pack was my favourite dark Eldar unit in 5th (yes they weren't as good then, but i loved them) and 6th. Annnnd part of 7th until the beast pack changed in the current book. The point valus are mostly OK, but the unit size is the Real killer there. If the unit could be up to 20 ibwoild still take the pack

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Wed Sep 23 2015, 18:20

Exactly, unit size was the actual nerf taking them from viable deathstar status to support fodder.

That said 10 pt s/t 4 daemons aren't bad by any stretch, but you need to commit to them. For example: orks running a gunline plus 1 mob of boyz won't see the boyz accomplish much. However you throw 3x30 down each with pain boy pk nob and a mek for challenges and suddenly your opponent has nowhere to kite and 1 turn to figure out how to deal with it.
By the same token 4-5 x 12 khymera along with other fast combat units is some serious pressure and really clogs board space. I've smashed a death company based list this way and I know tau DS crisis teams don't like seeing massed daemons either. Meanwhile grav, melta and plenty of other common weaponry is pretty worthless against them.
And then your still only talking 120 pts for units that with some cover become incredibly annoying to remove in 1 turn. From my experience they play out very similar to DoC only with less combat presence but far more ranged support capability. Its a great play style and viable IMO.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Are beastpacks valid option?   Sat Sep 26 2015, 02:50

@colinsherlow wrote:
The breast pack was my favourite

Breast pack is still one of my favorites lol!
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