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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Clone Field   Mon Sep 07 2015, 22:26

Does anyone like/use the Clone Field?

Or, is it Shadowfield-or-bust? Wink
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Mon Sep 07 2015, 22:30

If I don't have the points for a Shadowfield, I will totally buy a Clone Field.

As far as 'cool mechanics that were made boring by the new codex,' this is the Gold Medal Winner for me.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Mon Sep 07 2015, 22:35

@Jimsolo wrote:

As far as 'cool mechanics that were made boring by the new codex,' this is the Gold Medal Winner for me.

Yep. So many possibilities... and they chose the dullest possible option. Sigh.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Mon Sep 07 2015, 23:21

SF or bust for me. Just last night I tanked the wounds from a triple vindi formation before losing the archon on the last one. Grots went on to roll an entire flank. That type of stuff can't happen from anything less than 2++.
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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Tue Sep 08 2015, 00:24

If you like your Shadowfield, let me remind you you can take two Archons with Shadowfields each. I managed to protect my uber-unit from a whole turn of Tau shooting that way.
Compared to that, the Clonefield just seems so lacklustre.
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Tue Sep 08 2015, 11:55

Edit: Stoopid post. never mind me Smile
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RCZ
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Tue Sep 08 2015, 12:06

I usually go for the 4+ invulnerable save. I feel defrauded if i pay 40 pts for a invul save that i am scared to use.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Tue Sep 08 2015, 14:09

@Brom wrote:
SF or bust for me. Just last night I tanked the wounds from a triple vindi formation before losing the archon on the last one.

I never realised how altruistic Archons were. Wink
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Tue Sep 08 2015, 14:48

@The Shredder wrote:
@Brom wrote:
SF or bust for me. Just last night I tanked the wounds from a triple vindi formation before losing the archon on the last one.

I never realised how altruistic Archons were. Wink
Ha not by half! It was an act of pure hatred.
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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Tue Sep 08 2015, 15:16

Must be quite the adrenaline rush seeing dozens of assault canons pointed at you, knowing there's a one in six chance that you will bite it.

Defying death like that is a very Dark Eldary thing to do IMO. Some Heamonculi even actively pursue death (see coven warlord trait). It's all a big joke to them.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Tue Sep 08 2015, 16:47

@RCZ wrote:
I usually go for the 4+ invulnerable save. I feel defrauded if i pay 40 pts for a invul save that i am scared to use.

I know what you mean.

One particular problem for me is that I really don't like once-per-game stuff or effects that 'run out'. I don't mind them too much on other units, but I really despise them on my 'commander' models.

I guess I'm just weird. tongue


Oh, random question, guys - how would you go about representing a Shadowfield or Clone Field for the purposes of WISIWIG?
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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Tue Sep 08 2015, 17:20

Clone field- use two copies of the same archon (preferably on the same base, same pose, etc)
Shadowfields- either paint your archon normally and give him a heavy black shading, or use an empty base.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Tue Sep 08 2015, 17:23

Reminds me of this:

Spoiler:
 
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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Tue Sep 08 2015, 20:55

I LOL'd. Out of curiosity: How did that entry do?
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Thu Sep 10 2015, 00:19

SF or bust. I'd like to see the clone field as an option on Heamonculus


Last edited by lament.config on Fri Sep 11 2015, 02:22; edited 1 time in total
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Thu Sep 10 2015, 13:22

@The PayneTrayn wrote:
I LOL'd. Out of curiosity: How did that entry do?

I'm afraid I've no idea.

@lament.config wrote:
I'd lime to see the clone field as an option on Heamonculus

Likewise.
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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Thu Sep 10 2015, 19:54

@Jimsolo wrote:
If I don't have the points for a Shadowfield, I will totally buy a Clone Field.

As far as 'cool mechanics that were made boring by the new codex,' this is the Gold Medal Winner for me.

Bladevanes would like a word with you.

On topic, I don't know... I've not actually ran an archon with the current book (which is a shame because I love my archon) but every time I try and give him gear I look at the result and think "I could get a reasonably kitted succubus/haemonculus for 40 points less" and just go with that instead.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Thu Sep 10 2015, 20:33

@Panic_Puppet wrote:

On topic, I don't know... I've not actually ran an archon with the current book (which is a shame because I love my archon) but every time I try and give him gear I look at the result and think "I could get a reasonably kitted succubus/haemonculus for 40 points less" and just go with that instead.

If you think that's depressing, try comparing an Archon to what other races can get for those points:

For example:
Archon with Haywire Grenades, Agoniser and Clone Field - 110
Autrach with Jetbike, Haywire Grenades and Firesabre - 115

The Autarch costs 5pts more with a comparable weapon, but is faster, has +1T, has better shooting, has much better armour, and lets you modify your reserve rolls. And that's just as an idea - the Autarch has far more options. You can replace the Firesabre with the Shard for S5 Rending attacks and Fearless. You can have a meltagun or pistol. You can take advantage of the Jetbike's relentless to use a Reaper Launcher. etc.

Another comparison:
Archon with Haywire Grenades, Agoniser and Shadowfield - 130
SM Captain with Melta Bombs, Relic Blade and Storm Shield - 135

Again, 5pts more. The Archon has +1WS, +1I and +2A and a 2++ that's lost the first time its failed. The Captain has +3S +1T, ATSKNF, better armour, much better grenades and a 3++ that never goes away.

And, again, the Captain has stuff like a bike and jetpack, a power fist, a relic weapon that's worth a damn, the option of a 2+ save etc.

Finally:
Archon w/ Haywire Grenades, Agoniser and Shadowfield - 130
Overlord w/ Warscythe and Phase Shifter - 125

The Archon has better WS and I and more attacks, and a 2++ that's lost the first time it fails. The Overlord has +4S, +2T, better armour, only a 4++ but then 5+ (or even 4+ if Decurion) Necro-no-pain save afterwards, and none of these are lost the first time they're failed. Whilst slower, it's weapon has better AP, wounds most things on 2s (rather than 4s), and is miles better against vehicles than the Archon's haywire grenades.

I want to like the Archon, I really do. But he's just so overpriced for what he brings, his wargear is incredibly limited (with no jetbike or jump options to speak of), and what little he has got is pathetic, overcosted or both.

Apologies for this turning into a rant. Just rather frustrated with DE at the moment.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Thu Sep 10 2015, 21:53

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
If I don't have the points for a Shadowfield, I will totally buy a Clone Field.

As far as 'cool mechanics that were made boring by the new codex,' this is the Gold Medal Winner for me.

Bladevanes would like a word with you.

On topic, I don't know... I've not actually ran an archon with the current book (which is a shame because I love my archon) but every time I try and give him gear I look at the result and think "I could get a reasonably kitted succubus/haemonculus for 40 points less" and just go with that instead.
Ity is a shame because archons can be animals in combat.

We can't really compare them pt for pt to other hq's though IMO because too many differences exist. The best assault vehicles in the game available in every single slot bar hs plays a factor as does the units they can join. I recently had my archon and grots escort called the best assault unit in the game by a seasoned marine player after I nearly tabled his force and mostly by combat.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Thu Sep 10 2015, 22:11

@Brom wrote:

Ity is a shame because archons can be animals in combat.

I suspect our definitions of that differ. Wink

@Brom wrote:

We can't really compare them pt for pt to other hq's though IMO because too many differences exist.

We can and should. That's the whole reason point costs exist.

@Brom wrote:
The best assault vehicles in the game available in every single slot bar hs plays a factor as does the units they can join.

With regard to transports though, most other races don't need transports - because their HQs are allowed bikes, thunderwolves etc. and can join units of such.

But, I guess HQs that can move quickly without transports would be against the theme of DE. scratch

@Brom wrote:
I recently had my archon and grots escort called the best assault unit in the game by a seasoned marine player after I nearly tabled his force and mostly by combat.

Did he use a lot of Grav, by any chance? Laughing
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Thu Sep 10 2015, 23:52

@The Shredder wrote:
@Brom wrote:

Ity is a shame because archons can be animals in combat.

I suspect our definitions of that differ. Wink



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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Fri Sep 11 2015, 00:36

The point raised above in regards to paying double points for an invulnerable save that you're too scared to use is very valid and hits home over here. I have a few considerations now:
1. If I take the clone field, the archon should pick fights with plebs only - no heroics for this guy. A fluffed roll on the I7 attacks could result in a dead warlord (because, you know.. a stiff breeze instajibs him)
2. clone field may compliment the huskblade quite well. But again, pick your battles - 3+ armour only for challenges so as to ensure no attacks come back at him.
3. shadow field for heroics.

Thinking about it, a LoS is a 2+ save that doesn't disappear if you fail it once. I might try the clone field and see if it is viable. I like to run my archon in a court unit (5 sslyth and a medusa) but I may also give him a go in the incubi. The sslyth can generally take care of themselves in combat..

Thanks for the food for thought!
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Fri Sep 11 2015, 01:41

Hahaha that's good stuff. In not saying archons are on par with day smashfether or other beatsticks but in the overall scheme they are good.

My opponent brought a mechanized demi co iirc with somewhere around 11 pieces of armour including triple vindis, 2++ cover las devs in bolstered ruins with stealth ruins WL trait. I was on my friendly list kick and so I had double grots, incubi, only 1 ravager plus reavers blaster warriors and I think some hwb scourges among other things. I accounted for 5 wrecked vehicles in combat alone, all secondaries and the relic. Good luck, no great luck with a grot unit helped but still not the best match obviously.

I think terrain is a main culprit for the variance in performance between players using similar units. We tend to use a healthy amount of terrain, probably better than most I'd wager with plenty of LoS blocking. In this environment assault is a force not only due to LoS blocking and cover but also because it's necessary to dig shooters out among other things. Outside of orks there really isn't a bike unit that can tangle with dedicated assault units.

To tie this together, I don't feel an archon is a beatstick but he does mulch troops while threatening to one shot most ICs and thus combined with SF goes a long way to bolster the unit he joins.

Taken out of context Ya he looks sub par but look at the big picture.. twc are all that book has, DC same for BA. Autards are crap outside of reserve manip or joining reavers but if we're talking allies then the archon gets access to scytheguard. I also ran a list focused on wyches and beast packs thinking it would be fluffy. Turns out it destroyed another opponent because the whole army theatres turn 2 assault while still having guns.
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Fri Sep 11 2015, 01:57

@Brom wrote:
I don't feel an archon is a beatstick but he does mulch troops while threatening to one shot most ICs and thus combined with SF goes a long way to bolster the unit he joins.

That's something I did notice. GW have pidgeon-holed the archon into a shooting role (as you say, he can one-shot a non-eternal dude or dudette).
Maybe i'll consider that blast pistol Wink
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Clone Field   Fri Sep 11 2015, 05:35

I agree the combat archon took a hit but after playing with the changes for awhile I feel it's been over stated a bit. Pisses me off but it hardly invalidates the build. I've found the soul trap is surprisingly better than before, the loss of a venom blade while supremely annoying is not game breaking. The change to the huskblade is the biggest hit and it's occasionally pivotal but that's all. Most good units with 2+ are characters and many of those pack 3++ and/or eternal warrior anyway so it's often just a 1/6 downgrade vs 0-2 models in the army at worst.
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