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 Scourge vs Trueborn

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Lynkon_Lawg
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Fri Oct 02 2015, 22:05

DE have excellent anti-infantry options, and many people have pointed them out here, but Scourge and Trueborn are not it. Scourge are awesome disposable tank killers. You give them either four Haywire Blasters or four Heat Lances and deep strike them right behind a high value vehicle, they blow it to hell, and they become a bullet magnet on the other players next turn. Trueborn cost a little more, but you take them with four blasters and a twin Splinter Cannon venom, and you have yourself a multipurpose killer. DS that behind a transport, blow it to hell with the blasters, and use the 12 shots of splinter cannon fire to tear up whatever spills out. Like others have said, twin-cannon venoms have 12 poison shots per turn at 36", but are susceptible to jink snapfire. On the other hand, ten Kabalites in a Raider have 20 twin-linked poison shots (in rapid fire range, with splinter racks), or 22 if you take the splinter cannon on one model, and they do not suffer the jink snapshot.

Finally, I can't believe no one has suggested Reavers. I never take the gun upgrade, and I always take the cluster caltrops. With skilled rider, you have a 3+ jink so you run right down the opponents throat, you get a 36" turboboost, 2D6 shoot and scoot, and, most importantly, you do 2 str4 rending Hammer of Wrath hits AND d6 str6 Hammer of Wrath hits when you charge, for every three models in the unit! So you slam into your opponent, if he survives the initial strike, you stay in combat until the end of HIS assault turn, then use Hit and Run to break off, turn around and slam into him again on your turn for more Hammer of Wrath goodness. Unless he WANTS to be in close combat with you, in which you hit and run at the end of your assault phase, evade him during his phase, and then slam him again on your next turn. There are all kinds of tactics you can use that your can't pull off with other, less mobile units. For example, if you have a unit of Reavers wrap completely around a Rhino, and shoot it to hell with the Dark Lances you said you already have, the unit inside dies with the Rhino because if a passenger within a transport cannot disembark upon the destruction of the vehicle (you left him nowhere to get out without being less than 1" from an enemy model), that passenger is destroyed.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Sat Oct 03 2015, 05:26

Where do you find that passenger being destroyed rule?

And if you suggested to shoot with the dark lances of a squad and destroy a transport and afterwards with the same squad and shoot at the passengers, that won't work...
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The Fume Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Sat Oct 03 2015, 08:24

Hmmm. I completely spaced the firing off of a venom.. What are the rules for heavy weapons fired off of an open topped vehicle? I am sure that the Blasters would have no repercussions for firing, but dark lances would I'd figure, and again, although you all recommend using full on blasters, the doubled range of a 5 man trueborn squad with two dark lances really does change some things. The Reavers you mentioned.. I completely ignored them in the codex as I haven't been able to find them to buy around.. But I was under the impression they counted as a vehicle with no close combat abilities... But after what you've mentioned that is a unit I feel I may try and get my hands on, as for the scourge, I prefer them for the anti infantry because they are more reliable. The amount of heavy weapons they can carry plus their nice 4+ armor gives them a massive edge over regular kabalites or others, a squad of 5 with 3 splinter cannons unleash hell from a specific point. I was eradicating squads at a time when I had them setup in that fashion.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Sat Oct 03 2015, 08:35

They don't have a 4+ Armour. They have a 3+ jink save. The Armour Save is hideous for a bike
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The Fume Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Sat Oct 03 2015, 08:43

I was talking 4+ for the scourge plus the invuln, but still.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Sat Oct 03 2015, 09:51

Ups. My bad.
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The Fume Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Sat Oct 03 2015, 09:55

'Tis fine. Razz

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Sun Oct 04 2015, 03:53

CptMetal to answer your question about Reavers, it's a combined implied side effect of following the rules as written on pages 81 and 82 in the BRB. 81 specifies that no disembarking model (emergency or otherwise) may be placed within 1 inch of enemy models, and 82 specifies that if a transport is destroyed any model that is unable to disembark is also destroyed.

Ergo, the presence of reavers clogging the 6 inch deployment ring prevents the unit from disembarking, and thus it is destroyed with the vehicle.
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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Sun Oct 04 2015, 20:18

Unless the vehicle explodes, if I may add. (Because then the vehicle is removed freeing up space for the unit inside of it)

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Lynkon_Lawg
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Mon Oct 05 2015, 22:12

@The Fume Knight wrote:
Hmmm. I completely spaced the firing off of a venom.. What are the rules for heavy weapons fired off of an open topped vehicle? I am sure that the Blasters would have no repercussions for firing, but dark lances would I'd figure, and again, although you all recommend using full on blasters, the doubled range of a 5 man trueborn squad with two dark lances really does change some things.   The Reavers you mentioned.. I completely ignored them in the codex as I haven't been able to find them to buy around.. But I was under the impression they counted as a vehicle with no close combat abilities... But after what you've mentioned that is a unit I feel I may try and get my hands on, as for the scourge, I prefer them for the anti infantry because they are more reliable. The amount of heavy weapons they can carry plus their nice 4+ armor gives them a massive edge over regular kabalites or others, a squad of 5 with 3 splinter cannons unleash hell from a specific point.  I was eradicating squads at a time when I had them setup in that fashion.  

Transport passengers firing heavy weapons from an open topped vehicle operate exactly the same as transport passengers firing heavy weapons fired from any other transport, but you are not restricted by the number of firing ports. Everyone can fire. There are some things to keep in mind. Unless the infantry holder of the heavy weapon has relentless, they snap shoot if they move and then fire. Salvo weapons (the Splinter Cannon is a salvo weapon, not a heavy weapon) fire at the lower number of shots at HALF range if the holder moves.

If your Scourges are armed with Splinter Cannons, and they moved this turn, they fire 4 shots at 18" each, instead of 6 shots at 36". (This is why people prefer to load them for AT. Haywire Blasters and Heat Lances are Assault weapons, not Heavy Weapons, so the scourge can make their full 12" jump pack movement, and shoot four AT weapons at full ballistic skill. The idea here is that they can deep strike in behind the vehicle within range and slam the weaker rear armor with the heat lance, or just drop in wherever they like in range for the haywire, and slam 4 shots at full ballistic into the vehicle that turn.

Now vehicles have relentless, and fast skimmers (which Venom are) can move 12" and fire two weapons at full ballistic skill, so it can move 12" then fire both Splinter Cannons (12 poisoned shots at 36") unless it jinked last turn, in which case it snap shoots.

Your passengers, if the vehicle moved at combat speed (6"), count as having "moved", and snap shoot if it moved at cruising (12"), so if the trueborn in the venom are carrying Dark Lances, they snap shoot if the venom moved at all (Heavy weapons snap shoot if the holder moved). If they are carrying blasters, the venom can move 6" AND jink, and the passengers can still fire all four blasters at full ballistic to full range (holders of assault weapons can still fire full ballistic if they "moved").

I know it's a lot, but does it make sense so far?
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Lynkon_Lawg
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Mon Oct 05 2015, 22:46

@CptMetal wrote:
Where do you find that passenger being destroyed rule?

And if you suggested to shoot with the dark lances of a squad and destroy a transport and afterwards with the same squad and shoot at the passengers, that won't work...

The passengers being destroyed is a combination of three components in the BRB.

1. Page 81 - Placing Disembarked Models
"When a unit disembarks, place the models one at a time, using the following method: place the first model in base contact with one of the vehicle's Access Points... A disembarking model's base cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy model or within impassable terrain."

2. Page 81 - Emergency Disembarkation
"If any models cannot disembark because of enemies...the unit can perform an emergency disembarkation. In this case, a model can be placed anywhere in contact with the vehicle's hull and can then move...If even this disembarkation is impossible, because it is impossible to place one or more models, then the unit can't disembark

3. Page 82 - Effect of Damage on Passengers (Wrecked (other than Zooming Flyers)
"The passengers must immediately disembark in the usual manner...If, even by performing an emergency disembarkation, some models are unable to disembark, then any models that cannot disembark are removed as casualties

Now as someone mentioned, if the vehicle explodes, none of this applies, so my mentioning dark lances was a mistake. Let's use a six-pack of Reavers and a Haywire Blaster Scourge unit for the example. The turn starts and the Scourge deep strike in close enough to, and with line of site to, a Rhino full of Space Marines. As the movement phase begins, the Reavers move their 12" towards the Rhino. The shooting phase starts and the Reavers use their 36" turbo boost to jump around the Rhino so that there is nowhere a disembarking Marine could touch the hull of the Rhino that is NOT within 1" of a Reaver. Six Reavers is plenty for a Rhino. I think the minimum for something Land Raider sized is nine. Now the Scourge fire their four Haywire Blasters at the Rhino and kill it. As per the rules above, the Marines must immediately disembark from the Rhino. Since the Access Points are covered by Reavers, the Marines must emergency disembark which they cannot do either. Since the entire vehicle is covered by Reavers, the Marines cannot disembark, and based on the last rule, they are removed as casualties. Think of it as them burning in their own METAL BAWKSES! One more kill point for me.


I knew I had seen a Mushkilla tactics page covering this. Check out this link for how to do this, with some nice diagrams as well.

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11546-the-pragmatic-realspace-raider-disembark-blocking-with-reavers#129218

Post edited. Please do not use bold red text as this is reserved for Moderators. Thanks - Count Adhemar

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Tue Oct 06 2015, 00:28

This comment says exactly what I said in 5 times as many words, and we don't quote the text here because that's how you attract gdubs lawyers.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Tue Oct 06 2015, 02:05

But they can be placed on top (!!) of the destroyed vehicle as if it would be area terrain, right? Because that what it does become. So like standing in the vehicle, studying in contact with it but facing inwards. Granted, that way not all of 10 dudes would survive when it's like that because of the 1 inch radius to my models.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Tue Oct 06 2015, 04:06

@CptMetal wrote:
But they can be placed on top (!!) of the destroyed vehicle as if it would be area terrain, right? Because that what it does become. So like standing in the vehicle, studying in contact with it but facing inwards. Granted, that way not all of 10 dudes would survive when it's like that because of the 1 inch radius to my models.
No because the models are placed in contact with the hull first, which they cannot do. The "becomes a wreck" part occurs last. It's a valid tactic and one we do better than pretty much anyone. A good deal of my wins against mechanized infantry are off the back of this tactic. Introduce this and I promise it will add a whole other level to your movement phases where you play. It's like driving in LA vs bfe.

Even explodes doesn't completely stop it btw due to 1" proximity meaning at least some models will likely fall casualty.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Tue Oct 06 2015, 06:35

LA? Bfe? What are you talking about?

If it explodes they are save because one after another is placed and moved.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Tue Oct 06 2015, 14:05

Los Angeles vs bum fu.. forget it obviously a bad analogy.

Placing one at a time doesn't save models that can't fit.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Tue Oct 06 2015, 14:24

@CptMetal wrote:
LA?  Bfe? What are you talking about?

If it explodes they are save because one after another is placed and moved.

Nope. If there's enough of them, several won't be able to be placed further than 1" from one of the surrounding enemies, and so will auto die. I've lost whole grot squads this way a few times.
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