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The Fume Knight
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PostSubject: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 02 2015, 01:34

So looking at my current army, as I'm still somewhat new, I need more firepower, I still have my army geared to be a Kabal army, I dont' really want to mess with any covens. So for me, my ravagers and some bits of warriors have Dark Lance, so when it comes to blowing large targets to hell I'm not too worried, my issue is finding firepower to mow down infantry, once I get some more money I plan on buying some scourge or trueborn, which I plan on loading with high fire rate weaponry, splinter cannons etc, I'm not too sure which people recommend, as I don't really plan on moving the units from a designated position once they are in range to lay waste, which choice would you all recommend? and what weaponry should I choose?

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 02 2015, 01:42

Scourges can have 4 cannons per 5 models and have carbines by default. They will outgun trueborn in regards to anti-infantry IMO. Venoms are alternative. Disintegrator Ravager too.
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quark!
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 02 2015, 02:50

I also think Scourges are going to serve you better as special weapons caddies if you're choosing between them and trueborn. They will also be marginally more flexible with regard to mobility and survivability. Trueborn with a venom are worth exploring, but that's mostly for the venom.

Outside of the box, my recommendation would be the razorwing jetfighter. The monoscythe missiles and dissies will delete infantry no problem.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 02 2015, 03:44

Maybe you should consider using your scourge/trueborn as anti-tank, and devote your actual anti-tank to anti-infantry, instead.

Venom kabalite are good to mow infantry.

I second the razorwing.
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The Fume Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 02 2015, 04:15

Interesting.. alright, unfortunately, my ravagers are all final with the Dark Lance, I can't change to disintegrators.. :'c but.. If i invest in more, then maybe, I was also thinking of the Voidraven, but I'm not quite sure how it'd work, the razorwing though.. Is cheaper, I may look into that.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 02 2015, 09:43

Voidraven na-ah. Great model but most ppl prefer RWJ. Cost and alphastrike is great. Model is great too. I always bring one.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 02 2015, 11:29

Honestly, I wouldn't use Scorges or Trueborn for anti-infantry.

For anti-infantry, my picks would be any or all of the following:
- Venoms (pack similar firepower to scourges and trueborn, but are much more mobile and can be taken as dedicated transports)
- 10 Warriors in a Raider with Splinter Racks (personally, I prefer venoms. However, this still puts out 20 twin-linked splinter shots at 12", which aren't affected by their transport jinking)
- Razorwing (not too expensive for 4 S6 large blasts, even if they are only once-per-game. Also packs 2 disintegrators for killing heavy infantry)
- Grotesques (3-4 Grots - especially Coven ones - will eat a lot of infantry in melee)
- Incubi (I find them much more risky than grotesques, as they're a lot easier to kill. However, they'll probably be better than grotesques against units with good armour saves. Not my first choice, as you might have guessed, but I'd still take them over Scourges or Trueborn for anti-infantry.)
- 3-4 Medusae in a Raider (multiple S4 AP3 flamers.)

I'd certainly advise considering some or all of these over trueborn or scourges, both of which tend to be much better suited to anti-vehicle roles.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 02 2015, 15:28

^ This
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The Fume Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 11:24

Good to know, I found today out for sure that Venoms are lethal to infantry, they can really lay down to fire, I may buy a Razor wing and through some Disintegrator cannons on it, I'm sure those would be brutal.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 11:35

I wish my Venoms were lethal to infantry. Or even to MCs. Crying or Very sad

Last night, 4 venoms shot a marine squad over a couple of turns and managed a meagre 3 wounds.

Then, about 10 venoms shot at a couple of Dreadknights over the course of 2 turns. They managed a grand total of 1 wound.

Not to be outdone, 4 Incubi charged 5 GKs, lost one guy to overwatch and then the remainder inflicted 1 casualty and were slaughtered in return.

The grand finale involved 5 Heat Lances firing point-blank at a Morkanought (it was a 2v2 game), and only managing a single Immobilised result.


Back on topic, when you guys use Blasterborn, are you at all worried about stuff like Dreadknights? I ask because one of the things that made me drop them was the realisation that said DKs could jump into (or near) my deployment zone on turn 1 and roast my trueborn squads without them ever leaving their transports. silent
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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 12:46

@The Shredder wrote:
I wish my Venoms were lethal to infantry. Or even to MCs. Crying or Very sad

Last night, 4 venoms shot a marine squad over a couple of turns and managed a meagre 3 wounds.

Then, about 10 venoms shot at a couple of Dreadknights over the course of 2 turns. They managed a grand total of 1 wound.

Not to be outdone, 4 Incubi charged 5 GKs, lost one guy to overwatch and then the remainder inflicted 1 casualty and were slaughtered in return.

The grand finale involved 5 Heat Lances firing point-blank at a Morkanought (it was a 2v2 game), and only managing a single Immobilised result.

crap happens, but this is pretty crap... (e: not supposed to say crap, but you catch my drift)

Not many Grey Knights where I play so that is not too much of an issue for me.

I prefer to run with both trueborn and scourge to cover all bases, but see the scourge as somewhat more vulnerable against some armies. It's nice to put the trueborn inside a venom for the canons, the speed, and extra protection. Alternatively you can put them inside raiders (see other thread).
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 18:42

Well, with all being said, trueborn vs scourges, as anti-infantry, i vote for Scourges with 4 cannons. Dont jink, mobile, enemy anti-tank wont fire them, lucky shot wont destroy all the damage output outright. Smaller point games - definately Scourges.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 18:54

But scourges die much faster.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 18:59

Most long range weapons are still AV. There is no need for them to die. Smaller games, where there isnt crap load of dice - i'd say they better then trueborn.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 19:59

But a single marine squad is enough to kill them if they are 24 inch away
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 20:39

You could nest them 36 away.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 20:41

Not with anti vehicle weaponry. I don't say they can jump and shoot. They would be dead afterwards.
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quark!
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 21:53

@The Shredder wrote:

Back on topic, when you guys use Blasterborn, are you at all worried about stuff like Dreadknights? I ask because one of the things that made me drop them was the realisation that said DKs could jump into (or near) my deployment zone on turn 1 and roast my trueborn squads without them ever leaving their transports. silent

Honestly, this is with what playing MSU Dark Eldar is all about. The GK moved his 180 point DK into range of your entire army for 100 points of trueborn.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 22:03

I don't like trueborn in our current dex, too expensive, maybe if blasters were 10pts.

My scourges jump from cover to cover striping hull points from 24" and I'm very happy with them.

I don't find they die too early because target saturation and their speed keeps them (relatively) safe. Almost all of our units die when they draw fire that's why I take MSU + something tough and scary like grots.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Wed Sep 09 2015, 22:31

@quark! wrote:

Honestly, this is with what playing MSU Dark Eldar is all about. The GK moved his 180 point DK into range of your entire army for 100 points of trueborn.

Well, if he gets the vehicle as well (hardly unlikely between a S6 flamer and 6 S7 shots), then he's already made back the cost of his DK, and it has yet to suffer a single wound. At worst, it's made back its cost, at best it survives to roast another trueborn squad next turn.
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quark!
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Thu Sep 10 2015, 01:37

I still think your objection to using trueborn is slightly misplaced. If "making back the cost" of the unit is the goal, your opponent has eliminated ~160-180 point set of units, exposing a ~230 point unit (assuming a psycannon, teleporter, and flamer) to fairly certain death.

When we move away from points trading, I still feel pretty good. The dreadknight is a really strong unit that brings mobility and high rate of fire to a faction that (depending on the build) can be really hamstrung by its loss. Meanwhile, msu kabalites should still have lots of darklight, poison, and mobility once those trueborn get incinerated.

Are there other examples that can alpha strike a unit of trueborn off the board for even fewer points? Probably. Does that make them a bad choice? Not really. Pretty much every unit in a kabalite build will be just as vulnerable to an alpha strike. The only way to really counter that is through deployment, which has been discussed elsewhere.

Staying as theoretical as possible, kabalite themed lists need to fit as many lances, poison shots and transports on the board as possible given point/detachment constraints. Blasterborn bring all the essential elements to the table in that regard at pretty much the same price you get from other units in the DE book. For that reason, I still use them regularly in ~1850+ point games limited to one detachment. The unit build I use is three blasters in a transport, ~160 points.

If you're between scourges and trueborn in a kabalite warrior themed list, I like the trueborn more because they're in a transport which increases light armor target saturation and blasters are effective against a more diverse range of targets than hw or heat lances.

For the constraints imposed by the OP (which unit would i equip with splinter cannons?), I will stick to my first reply.




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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Thu Sep 10 2015, 12:10

Id max out my troop slots with kabalites with blaster and transport before id think about taking blasterborn.

Unless I wanted a AT unit to WWP down with an archon and I couldn't take fire dragons.
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The Fume Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Fri Sep 11 2015, 08:57

One of the reasons I am really thinking about trueborn is the fact they can board transports and still fire from the transport under a moderately higher defense then their own, and with heavy weapons firing from the transport, they would be a bit of a slightly less heavy hitting, but more defensive type of unit, I don't have a Raider, but I do have 3 venoms currently, I still would plan on a Scourge squad if I did have a trueborn squad, but yeah. haha

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Fri Sep 11 2015, 10:33

Just use the scourges for Haywire weaponry. It's awesome. I still have to refine my tactics so they actually survive, but they get their points back in most games.

Now I'm thinking it would be better to take 8-10 man squads to enhance their survivability.
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The Fume Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge vs Trueborn   Fri Sep 11 2015, 10:42

Thats a reason Scourge are so insane for me is their accessibility to so many different firearms, to my memory, the only heavy weapons Trueborn can take is Dark Lance and Splinter Cannon (excluding special weapons) I just feel like on a transport, firing as it goes is a good way to lay heavy fire while they also have defenses.

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