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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 22 2015, 23:20

@Jimsolo wrote:
Virtually every major engagement in the fluff depicts more than one tabletop army per side.  The armies of the Imperium all work together on a regular basis.  Chaos Marines and Daemons should have been a single codex long ago.   

Really?

Most of the battles I've seen depicted are strictly one army vs another army. Neutral

@Jimsolo wrote:

There's no reason I shouldn't be able to take Harlequins-Dark Eldar, or Corsairs-Eldar.  

Sigh.

Hence why I didn't say you shouldn't be able to do so.

What I said was that those armies shouldn't be any stronger than if you were just using a pure army of one or the other.
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spellcheck2001
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 22 2015, 23:22

@The Shredder wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
I'd be shocked if we don't get a D weapon with the next codex.

Personally, I'd prefer if everyone else lost them. And then super heavies and such were put back in Apocalypse. Where they belong.

@Jimsolo wrote:

That being said, I don't think armies with Battle Brothers should be fielded solo.

I'm the opposite - I don't think Battle Brothers should even exist, let alone be the only viable way to field those armies.

I love you Wink

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 22 2015, 23:46

@Jimsolo wrote:
I'd be shocked if we don't get a D weapon with the next codex.

That being said, I don't think armies with Battle Brothers should be fielded solo.  

That being said, we do have the capacity to deal with superheavies.  We can put out quite a few lances, melta lances, and haywire weapons fairly cheaply.

Oh, next time our Codex arrives, GW will be again like:
Henchman A: Oh crap, we made everything ridiculously strong to the point of no return... again.
Henchman B: Yeah, should start to nerf them now.
Henchman A: Which Codex was planned to be next again, Space Marines?
Henchman B: You can't do that to Marines!
Henchman A: Oh right, what about Dark Eldar then? Nobody likes those Chaos Eldar anyway, right?
Henchman B: Yeah, sounds about right.

Here it goes again...
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Wed Sep 23 2015, 01:06

@The Shredder wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
Virtually every major engagement in the fluff depicts more than one tabletop army per side.  The armies of the Imperium all work together on a regular basis.  Chaos Marines and Daemons should have been a single codex long ago.   

Really?

Most of the battles I've seen depicted are strictly one army vs another army. Neutral

@Jimsolo wrote:

There's no reason I shouldn't be able to take Harlequins-Dark Eldar, or Corsairs-Eldar.  

Sigh.

Hence why I didn't say you shouldn't be able to do so.

What I said was that those armies shouldn't be any stronger than if you were just using a pure army of one or the other.


http://variancehammer.com/2015/09/03/my-brother-and-i-against-the-world-eldar-and-dark-eldar-are-not-enemies/
^^^Good article

Allies are a thing. On the plus, if we must ally, our options are good. I agree that one army shouldn't be stronger than a pure one but, from a competitive standpoint combined Eldar factions are the strongest build for our book and the Eldar book. Pure DE is still 40k hardmode, maybe that's why our book isn't on the highest tier.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Wed Sep 23 2015, 01:14

@The Shredder wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
I'd be shocked if we don't get a D weapon with the next codex.

Personally, I'd prefer if everyone else lost them. And then super heavies and such were put back in Epic. Where they belong.

Fixed that for you. Smile

@The Shredder wrote:

@Jimsolo wrote:

That being said, I don't think armies with Battle Brothers should be fielded solo.

I'm the opposite - I don't think Battle Brothers should even exist, let alone be the only viable way to field those armies.

GW has the whole ally premise backwards. The implicit cost to using multiple books should be a loss of effective synergy, balancing the gain of using all manner of units to gain abilities outside of your core book. Instead, battle brothers let allied armies create new and appallingly effective combinations, outstripping the original books. No surprise that it's broken.

So, yeah, add it to the list of things to fix in 8th. Neutral
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Wed Sep 23 2015, 01:30

@Creeping Darkness wrote:


GW has the whole ally premise backwards. The implicit cost to using multiple books should be a loss of effective synergy, balancing the gain of using all manner of units to gain abilities outside of your core book. Instead, battle brothers let allied armies create new and appallingly effective combinations, outstripping the original books. No surprise that it's broken.

So, yeah, add it to the list of things to fix in 8th. Neutral

I think they are doing that to sell more books and models. Someone that plays Eldar now has more of a reason to play DE or vise versa.

I don't see them breaking the allies chart. 7th addition is more about being allowed to field more varied armies and combinations of units. This edition is more about what you can do as then what you can't do. The most difficult thing is making it work with multiple CADs or formations and stay within point limits and personal budgets.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Wed Sep 23 2015, 03:06

@lament.config wrote:

I think they are doing that to sell more books and models. Someone that plays Eldar now has more of a reason to play DE or vise versa.

I don't see them breaking the allies chart. 7th addition is more about being allowed to field more varied armies and combinations of units. This edition is more about what you can do as then what you can't do. The most difficult thing is making it work with multiple CADs or formations and stay within point limits and personal budgets.

Like it or not, allies are here to stay. I could live with that if they tweak the rules to keep the power of allied armies in the same ballpark as pure armies.

For example, I don't think Battle Brothers should be able to attach Independent Characters from an allied force. Maybe they could receive spells from their friends... maybe. But I'd prefer it if the two different factions couldn't interact at all, like Allies of Convenience now.

But what would the difference between allied tiers be then, I hear you cry? I'd give 'One Eye Open' and deployment restrictions to each tier, successively increasing the range and effect.

Eg:
Allies of Convenience, 3" range for OEO, forego shooting but still able to move on a failed test, can't be deployed within 6" of other faction.
Desperate Allies, 6" range for OEO, forego shooting and moving on a failed test, can't be deployed within 12" of other faction.
Come the Apocalypse, 9" range for OEO, shoot at the model from the other faction on a failed test, can't be deployed within 18".

So, players can still buy whatever they like and field it, can still use Dark Reapers as counts-as Heavy weapon Incubi or whatever, but can't mix'n'match buff characters from four different books to get massive deathstars. You're welcome, GW.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Wed Sep 23 2015, 04:56

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
I'd be shocked if we don't get a D weapon with the next codex.

Personally, I'd prefer if everyone else lost them. And then super heavies and such were put back in Epic. Where they belong.

Fixed that for you.  Smile

@The Shredder wrote:

@Jimsolo wrote:

That being said, I don't think armies with Battle Brothers should be fielded solo.

I'm the opposite - I don't think Battle Brothers should even exist, let alone be the only viable way to field those armies.

GW has the whole ally premise backwards. The implicit cost to using multiple books should be a loss of effective synergy, balancing the gain of using all manner of units to gain abilities outside of your core book. Instead, battle brothers let allied armies create new and appallingly effective combinations, outstripping the original books. No surprise that it's broken.

So, yeah, add it to the list of things to fix in 8th. Neutral

That's EXACTLY how it should work, though.

Mono dex builds should be powerhouses in one area, but multi dex builds should offer combo options you can't get with a single army.
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Rathian
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Wed Sep 23 2015, 09:36

I dislike the Allies of Convenience premise, it may work occasionally in fluff but there should be steeper penalties for fielding it on the tabletop. As for Come the Apocalypse... Nids and Necrons shouldn't ally with anyone! My enemy's enemy is probably my enemy too, so pull back, let them shoot each other then nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure...

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Wed Sep 23 2015, 10:15

With regard to allies, I think Allies of Convenience should be the highest 'rank' of ally (with Blood Brothers being removed).

That would, at the very least, eliminate a lot of the ally-based shenanigans.

I also think there should be some sort of bonus for using a pure army.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Wed Sep 23 2015, 10:16

@The Shredder wrote:
With regard to allies, I think Allies of Convenience should be the highest 'rank' of ally (with Blood Brothers being removed).

That would, at the very least, eliminate a lot of the ally-based shenanigans.

I also think there should be some sort of bonus for using a pure army.

I agree but that would hit model sales so it ain't happening. Of course, only 20% of model sales are to gamers apparently so the effect would actually be minimal and therefore could be done. Hop to it GW!

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Wed Sep 23 2015, 10:25

Quote :
Virtually every major engagement in the fluff depicts more than one tabletop army per side. The armies of the Imperium all work together on a regular basis. Chaos Marines and Daemons should have been a single codex long ago.

To point a few things out:

Every "major" engagement. That means mostly wars that draw the entire sector in. These do not happen on a regular basis.

The imperium does not work together on a regular basis. We have enough books showing us how the imperium is infighting for power, status or artifacts all the time.
We have the AdMech stealing an Artifact from Space Marines
We have Space Marines killing off Inquisitors
We have Imperial guard shooting each other in "friendly" fire to claim the victory as their own
We have imperial guard slaughtering an imperial planet to claim it as "conquered" so they can retire there

The imperium are no battle brothers. They are on the same side but they do not take direct orders from anyone outside their faction. Im not even sure if a Vostroyan Squad would listen to the ramblings of an Catachan officer.
While in times of great need the opposite exists (Armageddon, Tarsis Ultra,..) it is not the usual behaviour of the imperial factions.

On the other hand you have Chaos where the most used trooper is the heretic/renegade/rebellious ex-imperial solider and not the daemon or space marine.
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