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RCZ
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PostSubject: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 09:46

what do you repute the worst... gamebreaking (in worst sense) policy adopted by GW in this edition?

I.E: the most broken rules or set of rules that ruins the game / the worst idea of what the games must became etc...


In relation of our dark kin, obviusly.
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 09:48

We were last one to recieve old style dex with out "decurion" or loads of free stuff.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 09:51

Giving away free stuff just for taking formations. I wrote a Space Marine list the other day and in a 1600 point list I had 2070 points of models. So basically I'm playing with an extra 30% points than my opponent. Sounds fair to me!

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RCZ
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 09:51

I personally feel that all of this "emphasis" on bigger and bigger things is gonna ruin the games.
I personally hate who wins with gargantua creatures, i feel them like a compensation of who doesent knwo how to win, and the irk is worstened by the general feeling of that Gwees like to say "Ok, now if you wanna win you'll have to pay 10^2 euros for this uber super model (until we put out another more uber and more pricey).

Obviusly, also the fact that not all the factions have the some treatment or the some degrees of acces to counter to this foes irks me a lot.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 10:40

I have one and only: No Escape.
Its made our open-topped transports far more fragile and risky.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 13:24

The inability to shoot into CC.
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Tursarius
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 15:19

The change to splinter weapons. The core rules changed the re-rolling wounds from equal to strength to must be greater strength and then they dropped the strength of splinter weapons from 4 to 1. It will always wound on a 4+ or 6+ against gargantuan but before you could glance rear armour and re-roll wounds against t4 and below. My biggest beef with our codex is our lack of light anti-tank. Most other armies except guard have s4 basic weapons and their basic infantry are still effective against the rear of light tanks. I love how much ap2 we can bring but I feel nasty bringing 50+ ap2 shots to a game. That is probably why I do, being a dark kin though! Smile
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 15:32

Tursarius wrote:
The change to splinter weapons. The core rules changed the re-rolling wounds from equal to strength to must be greater strength and then they dropped the strength of splinter weapons from 4 to 1. It will always wound on a 4+ or 6+ against gargantuan but before you could glance rear armour and re-roll wounds against t4 and below.

Certainly from 5th edition onwards, rerolling wounds has only applied to close combat, not ranged. Similarly, poisoned weapons have had no effect on vehicles since at least 5th edition. I don't have 4th or earlier editions to hand to see their effects back then.

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Last edited by Count Adhemar on Tue Sep 01 2015, 16:21; edited 1 time in total
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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 15:40

I missed a couple editions I think but I miss being able to move 12 with our raiders, disembarking, running in the shooting phase, and then assaulting the most. I feel so much slower now
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 16:17

I miss decurions. Something with style that gives us actual benefits. Night fighting for the whole game or free transports or something like that.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 16:22

CptMetal wrote:
I miss decurions. Something with style that gives us actual benefits. Night fighting for the whole game or free transports or something like that.

Hey, if Space Marines can get free 55 point Razorbacks for all their units I don't see why we can't get free 55 point Venoms or Raiders for ours!

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 16:40

For me:

- Too much focus on big units, at the expense of infantry. Likewise, movement of all apocalypse units into regular 40k. D-weapons, super heavies and gargantuan creatures do not belong in a game that requires you to micromanage each individual guardsman. End of story.

- Non-troops can capture objectives.

- Too much free stuff. Now, there are two parts to this. Obviously there's the really obvious ones - like the ludicrous SM formation that gives free transports to everyone. But, there's also the more subtle ones. e.g. back in 5th SM's were ~18pts per model and that cost included the cost of grenades. Then they got a point reduction in 6th (down to 13ppm, IIRC) *and* got a free chapter tactics bonus. In 7th, they kept their chapter tactics bonuses, but then also got free tactical doctrines. In comparison, DE warriors were 9pts in 5th (50% of a SM). In 7th the only reward they got was a 1ppm reduction, bringing them to ~62% of a SM's cost, with none of the bonuses they received. I feel this is worth bringing up because it's an excellent example of other races simply not paying for their bonuses (SMs even got a discount in the same edition they received chapter bonuses).

- Too much Ignores Cover and too many silly cover saves (2+, 3+ rerollable etc.). It makes cover all-or-nothing, and we seem to suffer at both ends. We have few templates and no Ignores Cover weapons, and also lack the ability to get really good cover saves. 3+ jink might seem good, until you remember that DAs get rerollable jink as standard - which can easily turn into 2+ or 3+ rerollable, thanks to Skilled Rider and/or the Darkshroud (which itself has a 2+ rerollable Jink), and their detachment lets them jink on the first turn and still fire at full BS. Frankly, I'd like to see less silliness on both ends - make ignores cover a modifier, and stop all this stacking/rerollable cover save nonsense.

- The psychic phase can sod off and die in a fire.

- Random, random, random, random, random, random, random.
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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 17:43

Been said before, but I hope GW stop with the formations allowing free stuff. For now it's only space marines and ad mech who have access to that and players can agree to ignore those, but if more armies get these rules I don't think anyone will start taking them seriously as a gaming company anymore (see age of sigmar). This is honestly the only instance of game breaking that I see.

The inclusion of big stuff was foreseeable with the decline of apocalypse. I think that most players, at least the ones I play with, are sensible enough to either not overload on superheavies, or to communicate with the opponent what they intend to bring.

I actually like those decurion formations since they fit fluff and offer some fun combinations, and I hope that we get something similar too.

Two things that bug me about the current game that weren't an issue in previous editions are how powerful the shooting phase and psychic phase have become. When offered a boost in either BS or WS, 9 times out of 10 a unit benefits more from the BS. And these things are easily solved too; copy paste the to wound chart to the to hit chart in close combat and allow high WS units to become much more potent. For the psychic stuff, I would limit the amount of blessings allowed for each unit to one, to stop those psyched death star units.

Speaking of deathstars; is it just me, or did that term simply not exist 5 years ago?


Last edited by chickendinner on Tue Sep 01 2015, 17:49; edited 2 times in total
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 17:46

Or simply give us gear to kill those pesky psychics. Make us the hard counter.

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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 17:49

CptMetal wrote:
Or simply give us gear to kill those pesky psychics. Make us the hard counter.
Helm of spite anyone? Anyone?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 18:34

Oh, one other thing. GW has this weird idea about what constitutes a glass-hammer army - in that it seems to think it should be both easy to kill and also lack any kind of punch.  Neutral

chickendinner wrote:
Speaking of deathstars; is it just me, or did that term simply not exist 5 years ago?

Death stars definitely existed in 5th... it's just that they weren't very good outside of Kill Points (certainly not against anyne with even a vague grasp of tactics).

The main factors were:
- Deathstars were expensive. Nowadays, with price-drops pretty much across the board, you can have cheaper death stars, and also fit many more units in to support them.
- Deathstars had weaknesses other than D-weapons. Back in 5th, you just didn't get the resilience you do now. So many units have more wounds, better saves, FNP, EW, IWND etc. I think the best example is the Chapter Master. In 5th, he could have T5 (but still only counted as T4 for ID purposes), 3 wounds and a 2+/3+ save (possibly not even that). In 7th, he can have T5 (which also counts against ID), 4 wounds, a 2+/3+ save, FNP 6+ (which can be improved by various means) and IWND. I'm not even sure he's more expensive than his 5th edition counterpart. Also, let's not forget that toughness bonuses from bikes and the like didn't count towards ID (so a T4 model on a bike would still be insta-killed by a dark lance wound).
- 7th edition wound allocation is much better for most deathstars, and especially for mini-deathstars. Whilst 5th edition wound allocation got a lot of hate, only Nobz and paladins could really abuse it. Now, all you need is a tough character at the front and he can soak any and all fire against the squad.
- Less psychic support. Whilst psychic powers were used in 5th, they didn't come close to the level of stuff like Invisibility.
- No allies. Things like the Draigo-Centurion death star simply weren't possible.
- Virtually no deathstars were scoring. And, even then, the vast point investment meant that they had very little supporting them (e.g. an ork player could have 2 squads of Nob Bikers accompanied by warbosses... but that would basically be his entire 1500ptarmy). So, they tended to suffer badly in objective games.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 18:36

Even in 5th a few Deathstars were viable. Draigowing is where I first heard the term, actually.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 19:18

The Shredder wrote:
For me:

- Too much focus on big units, at the expense of infantry. Likewise, movement of all apocalypse units into regular 40k. D-weapons, super heavies and gargantuan creatures do not belong in a game that requires you to micromanage each individual guardsman. End of story.

- Non-troops can capture objectives.

- Too much free stuff. Now, there are two parts to this. Obviously there's the really obvious ones - like the ludicrous SM formation that gives free transports to everyone. But, there's also the more subtle ones. e.g. back in 5th SM's were ~18pts per model and that cost included the cost of grenades. Then they got a point reduction in 6th (down to 13ppm, IIRC) *and* got a free chapter tactics bonus. In 7th, they kept their chapter tactics bonuses, but then also got free tactical doctrines. In comparison, DE warriors were 9pts in 5th (50% of a SM). In 7th the only reward they got was a 1ppm reduction, bringing them to ~62% of a SM's cost, with none of the bonuses they received. I feel this is worth bringing up because it's an excellent example of other races simply not paying for their bonuses (SMs even got a discount in the same edition they received chapter bonuses).

- Too much Ignores Cover and too many silly cover saves (2+, 3+ rerollable etc.). It makes cover all-or-nothing, and we seem to suffer at both ends. We have few templates and no Ignores Cover weapons, and also lack the ability to get really good cover saves. 3+ jink might seem good, until you remember that DAs get rerollable jink as standard - which can easily turn into 2+ or 3+ rerollable, thanks to Skilled Rider and/or the Darkshroud (which itself has a 2+ rerollable Jink), and their detachment lets them jink on the first turn and still fire at full BS. Frankly, I'd like to see less silliness on both ends - make ignores cover a modifier, and stop all this stacking/rerollable cover save nonsense.

- The psychic phase can sod off and die in a fire.

- Random, random, random, random, random, random, random.
Well that about sums it up.

On deathstars they have always existed. They are really just combat units. Only now they can shoot too. Remember back in 3rd I believe it was when death company were generated from each unit on a 4+ and had rending.. I had DC units close to 30 models before. Or nobz bikers hayday or paladin stars and so on.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 19:26

Jimsolo wrote:
Even in 5th a few Deathstars were viable.  Draigowing is where I first heard the term, actually.  

But, that's the thing - Draigowing in 5th was a pretty poor tactic outside of kill points.

Sure, it was hard to kill, but it meant that your entire army was dumped in 1-2 squads of paladins. Now, even aside from the fact that paladins died pretty easily to S8+ shooting, they simply lacked the numbers to do anything. They had no mobility outside of transports (and, with so few other units, guess where the enemy's entire anti-armour firepower is going to be headed...), and they couldn't rely on shooting units to death (not for their cost, anyway). So, you have an 800pt deathstar that's waddling across the field desperately trying to get into melee, and also trying to pretend that it was somehow a worthwhile investment.

Trust me - the GK book had better things to do with its points than waste them on Draigo and some ludicrously expensive paladins.

It was just something that got massively overhyped.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 19:59

Well, for such a poor tactic, I remember it cleaning house at more than a few events. Maybe that's just the grease smeared lens of nostalgia, though.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 20:07

Really? I thought it was the various MSU lists (Razorback spam especially) that tended to win events in 5th.
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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 22:09

Maybe I wasn't that involved in the hobby that I was exposed to the deathstars back then, but even you guys seem to agree that they are much more of a problem now than before.
Like a said, some reining in of the psychic powers would help toning them down.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Tue Sep 01 2015, 22:31

I hate that there is not enough cohesion in the community to create balanced and supported ruleset alternative for both armies and basic rules.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Wed Sep 02 2015, 01:48

Free stuff, missing the Decurion wave, Ignores Cover (I wish that rule would die in a fire), poor integration of Apoc stuff, as mentioned above.

Also, Snap Fire is crap and leads to many other things being unfun (flyers, invisibility, overwatch).

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Some hate   Wed Sep 02 2015, 11:04

Creeping Darkness wrote:

Also, Snap Fire is crap and leads to many other things being unfun (flyers, invisibility, overwatch).

As yes, snapshots. Otherwise known as 'faffing about' or 'how to increase the length of a game by 50% whilst adding sod all'.
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