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 Surpised by Wyches

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Elzadar
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PostSubject: Surpised by Wyches   Sat Aug 29 2015, 17:44

I had a small game today of around 700 points against Khorne Daemonkin. I had one unit Wyches with an Archon. First that unit killed a chaos space marine squad, losing only one model. (nothing due to overwatch) It was then charged by a Terminator Lord with four possessed. The Archon killed 3 possessed. The Hekatrix did nothing in the challenge against the Terminator lord and died. The remaining wyches then killed the last possessed.

Afterwards over two rounds of combat the Terminator lord killed two wyches, after which the wyches killed the terminator lord. (the archon wasn't fighting as he was refusing challenges Razz)

All in all I was very surprised they managed to pull this one off, and it looks like I'll be using them more in the future Razz

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Sat Aug 29 2015, 20:19

Wow. That's impressive. I wish I could buy them agoniser as special weapons.

Let us know how you fare with them. I never considered them effective but with the right drugs and power from Pain...who knows.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Sat Aug 29 2015, 21:02

I'm glad it played out well for you, although I think you might find these results atypical.
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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Sun Aug 30 2015, 21:26

the units wyches excel against is death stars as they die so slowly, if not just shot, for their points cost.

big combat deathstars arent as common as they used to be though so they are less useful.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Sun Aug 30 2015, 21:42

Despite all the hate they get, I still like them and use them. And they do their jobs well enough.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Sun Aug 30 2015, 21:56

@helvexis wrote:
the units wyches excel against is death stars as they die so slowly

The 4++ is nice but T3 is a real drawback as there are so many more wounds to save against. I'm glad the OP found them useful in that game but, as Jimsolo implied, that's more likely the exception than the rule.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Mon Aug 31 2015, 20:31

Que someone coming along any minute to call y'all haters.

Anyway do you really think the added wounds to deal with while in cc due to t3 is the problem? For me it's more the lack of the fluff implied third attack and the power of overwatch in 7th coupled with no reliable way to negate overwatch for a vanilla DE army.

That said I've been using wyches against teq's with a gunslinger haemonculus to boost pfp with mixed results, anyone have a cheaper way?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Mon Aug 31 2015, 20:37

Gunslinger haemmy actually doesn't sound too bad.  I may look at that.

EDIT: Not for wyches of course. Gods no.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Mon Aug 31 2015, 21:23

Whats is a gunslinger Haemonculus?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Mon Aug 31 2015, 21:26

Haemonculus. Replace splinter pistol with the 2+ poison one. Replace 1 cc weapon with Parasites kiss. 80 points. Swap the other cc out for something if you want. But you now have 2 pistols which gives them gunslinger which lets them shoot both.
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Mon Aug 31 2015, 23:26

I think the Hekatrix upgrade with a agoniser is required to give them any punch in CC. You can also use them to soak wounds for a Succubus though I think there are other better options in the book for it.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Mon Aug 31 2015, 23:48

I think the main thing to remember is it depends on the context of the game. If your facing mostly combat oriented units then wyches might be ok. 4++, eventual FNP, possibly strength 4 or toughness 4, character support. Ya they become pretty decent all things considered.

Its the shooting phase, explodes results, THEN overwatch that hurts their viability across the spectrum. Bottom line, advice here is sound and backed by experience, but always consider what you got going on locally as the main determining factor.. opponents, terrain, missions, what-have-you.
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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Mon Aug 31 2015, 23:56

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@helvexis wrote:
the units wyches excel against is death stars as they die so slowly

The 4++ is nice but T3 is a real drawback as there are so many more wounds to save against. I'm glad the OP found them useful in that game but, as Jimsolo implied, that's more likely the exception than the rule.

you missed out a crucial part there Count "for their points cost" they are 10 points a model with a 4++ sure they get wounded easily but at best half those wounds go through usually its less with FnP.

im not going to argue they are a good unit but they have a specific purpose and in this specific purpose they do decently
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Mon Aug 31 2015, 23:59

From my experience, Wyches are nowhere near durable enough to warrant their points cost and they sure as hell don't have the offence to warrant it. YMMV.

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Elzadar
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Tue Sep 01 2015, 02:47

I love how leaving one positive topic on wyches produces so much hate Razz

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Tue Sep 01 2015, 03:27

Lol, amigo, this isn't anything even broaching on hate. The negative posts in this thread are downright complimentary compared to some of the others hereabouts. Very Happy
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Tue Sep 01 2015, 05:18

@Brom wrote:
Its the shooting phase, explodes results, THEN overwatch that hurts their viability across the spectrum.

^^^ This is my main beef with them. Against terminators they aren't bad or anything low model count with decent armor. A squad of 8 with a hekatrix w/ an agonizer and a succubus with a glaive can pack a punch once you gain furious charge or with a good drug roll. I've played this unit in lists that are somewhat melee heavy or themed as a wych cult. It doesn't work so well against large squads of orkz though.
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Tue Sep 01 2015, 08:51

I took Wyches in my list after reading about them in this thread. Needless to say they were not that great against Necrons Wraith list. No FNP is a killer for them. But I'll give them another shot. Not getting Relentles from PfP or some other means hurt kabalites quite a bit.

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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Tue Sep 01 2015, 23:36

they are by no means a good unit but i agree with Brom and Lament that it is mostly the shooting phase that makes them outright bad.

also yeah this is a very tame amount of hate for the poor wyches ... not that they dont enjoy the abuse the twisted hedonists.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Fri Sep 04 2015, 02:39

@helvexis wrote:

also yeah this is a very tame amount of hate for the poor wyches ... not that they dont enjoy the abuse the twisted hedonists.

I think we're past the hatred stage on wyches for the most part.  I literally forget they exist most of the time.  At least the models make for some good conversions.

@helvexis wrote:
they are by no means a good unit but i agree with Brom and Lament that it is mostly the shooting phase that makes them outright bad.

This^. If Gw'd make their 4++ a dodge, useful against all attacks, they'd be a bit more viable.  Even if they just made one of the wych weapons a storm shield (or eldar equivalent), granting an invulnerable save that could be used by the rest of the unit versus most shooting.

Even if you upgraded their survivabilty; comparing wyches to virtually any other dedicated melee though is really, really sad.  Let's just take 2 "chicks with knives" units within 5 points per model.

Death cult assassins basically put out more than 6 times as many unsaved wounds versus MEQs, at the same initiative as wyches, and cost 5 points more per model.  Oh an they get their invulnerable dodge(5++) versus everything including overwatch.

Banshees cost 3 points more per model, have much better armor, run and charge further, are immune to overwatch, and do roughly 3 times as much damage vs MEQ.

I could go on, but I won't other than to say these 2 units also have serious upgrades available to make them considerably more potent, while wyches can basically take a power weapon if they pay the sergeant tax.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Surpised by Wyches   Mon Sep 07 2015, 17:17

I ran a wych heavy list against a very friendly blood angels army a couple days back. They still didn't perform sadly. They were basically just hwg and pg throwers.
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