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 Grotesques, Death, and Taxes

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 15:59

@Sigmaril wrote:
Beat their squishy heads through their bellies!

Their Force weapons at initiative is S6, i believe? So odds are against them doing a lot of Wounds.

That's true, but how many do they need to do? 4 3s kills an entire grotesque squad, 5 5s kills the 625pt CTC.

And then there's DKs - which can easily catch your DA or CTC, and strike with S10 force weapons at initiative (against Grots, they don't even need to activate Force).

@Sigmaril wrote:

That said, I do not have any Grey Knights in my immediate meta, and I don't expect to see any at the tournament either.

Fair enough.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 16:35

@The Shredder wrote:
The issue I have is that the units with S10 are usually the same units that I have trouble dealing with at range, if you see what I mean. The Warboss-painboy-biker squad in particular just doesn't die to ranged fire.

If they don't have any targets, then you're paying a hell of a lot when a Lhamaean in a venom could have accomplished the same thing. Neutral


Anyway, is there any chance some of you (preferably those of you who've enjoyed great success Wink) could post your Grotesque lists? I'm mainly interested in 1500-1750pt lists.

Mainly I'm curious to see how you spend your points, and what you use to back up your Grots.


I've tried different squad sizes, but lately I've been running a Grotesquerie with six Grots in each squad and an Aberration with Agoniser in each squad as well. I give the Haemonculous a Scissorhand and WWP and then put a CAD Haemie with the same load out with the other Grot squad to ensure they're all Fearless on turn one. I should note that, I mostly play 2000 point games. At 1750 points, I'd go with four man squads in a Raider. At 1500 points, I might just take a Dark Artisan or Incubi. As much as I love Grots, at that point level, I'm not sure if I could spend enough on them to run them how I like them.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 16:41

@The Shredder wrote:
Interesting list.

Out of curiosity, what do you do when faced with GKs?

Hmm, I think I may be starting to understand why you've had such disappointing results with Grots (and Coven units in general, it sounds like). Is it safe to assume you see a lot of Grey Knights in your meta, Shredder?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 16:52

The thing is, we typically do 2v2s (because our group only has one board), and one player uses GKs virtually every game. So, unless we're doing a 1v1 or he's not there, I'm always going to be seeing 2 DKs, Draigo and a lot of force weapons.

But, even then, none of my examples of Grots doing badly actually mention GKs. They're more of a reason not to even bother with Coven stuff a lot of the time.

I was curious as to how an all-coven list would deal with GKs.

Incidentally, GK also one of the main reasons why I get so fed up with AP3 weapons...
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 17:36

What kind of lists do you run, out of curiosity?
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 18:26

@The Shredder wrote:
The thing is, we typically do 2v2s (because our group only has one board), and one player uses GKs virtually every game. So, unless we're doing a 1v1 or he's not there, I'm always going to be seeing 2 DKs, Draigo and a lot of force weapons.

But, even then, none of my examples of Grots doing badly actually mention GKs. They're more of a reason not to even bother with Coven stuff a lot of the time.

I was curious as to how an all-coven list would deal with GKs.

Incidentally, GK also one of the main reasons why I get so fed up with AP3 weapons...
That makes more sense now. If GK are such a regular opponent then all advice goes out the window and grots are largely reduced to campers. Bring 2 lists is all i can say there.

Otoh GK are pretty bad off without, or well even with FW and allies. I was playing them for awhile but the inflexibility kills it for me. You cannot adapt to any change in the meta outside of picking different disciplines. Meh. And traditional DE run a train on them unless they are tooling against us pretty hard. And I know gk say the reverse but it's in our favor IMO.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 18:45

[quote="Brom"]
@The Shredder wrote:

That makes more sense now. If GK are such a regular opponent then all advice goes out the window and grots are largely reduced to campers. Bring 2 lists is all i can say there.

Otoh GK are pretty bad off without, or well even with FW and allies. I was playing them for awhile but the inflexibility kills it for me. You cannot adapt to any change in the meta outside of picking different disciplines. Meh. And traditional DE run a train on them unless they are tooling against us pretty hard. And I know gk say the reverse but it's in our favor IMO.

I think I'd be okay against them in a 1v1, but in a 2v2 they're much more of a pain - since their ally can usually cover their weaknesses pretty well.

@Jimsolo wrote:
What kind of lists do you run, out of curiosity?

As a general rule, I like MSU lists with a lot of skimmers and fast units.

Recently my lists have been built around a core of:
- 4-5 venoms (at least 2 contain 5 warriors and a blaster, the others depend on the rest of my list and on how tight points are)
- 5 scourges with Haywire
- 3x 3 Reavers with Heat Lance and Cluster Caltrops
- Ravager with 3 Dark Lances

After that, it depends what direction I want to take it. If I want to use some Coven stuff, then I'll add DA, Grotesquerie or Covenite Fleshcorps (if I'm feeling optimistic Wink). Otherwise, I'll tend towards more shooty units - a Razorwing, 5 more scourges with haywire or heat lances, some more warriors in venoms or raiders, medusae. That sort of thing.

In terms of HQs, I'll usually only have a single character - usually a coven haemonculus (if I'm running any of the above coven formations), or an Archon if not. Other mandatory HQs will generally be filled with lhamaeans in venoms.

If you want an example list, this is the most recent one I used:

Grotesquerie:
Haemonculus w/ Scissorhands, Vexator Mask, Sindriq's Sump (Warlord)
3 Grotesques
- Raider w/ Dark Lance
3 Grotesques
- Raider w/ Dark Lance

RSR Detachment:
Archon w/ Agoniser, Animus Vitae
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
Lhamaean
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
Succubus w/ Glaive, Parasite's Kiss
4 Incubi w/ Klaivex
- Raider w/ Dark Lance
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
5 Scourges w/ 4x Haywire Blaster
5 Scourges w/ 4x Heat Lance
3 Reavers w/ Cluster Caltrops, Heat Lance
3 Reavers w/ Cluster Caltrops, Heat Lance
3 Reavers w/ Cluster Caltrops, Heat Lance
Ravager w/ 3x Dark Lance

It's somewhat atypical in that it includes 3 characters and Incubi (I wanted to try something a bit different), but otherwise it's pretty standard. If I used a similar list again, I'd drop the Succubus and some of the Haemonculi's gear (everything but the Sump), drop the Animus Vitae, and tool up the Archon and Grots more.

Hope that helps. If not, I'd be happy to elaborate and/or post some other lists.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sun Aug 30 2015, 01:04

@The Shredder wrote:
The thing is, we typically do 2v2s (because our group only has one board), and one player uses GKs virtually every game. So, unless we're doing a 1v1 or he's not there, I'm always going to be seeing 2 DKs, Draigo and a lot of force weapons.

But, even then, none of my examples of Grots doing badly actually mention GKs. They're more of a reason not to even bother with Coven stuff a lot of the time.

I was curious as to how an all-coven list would deal with GKs.

Incidentally, GK also one of the main reasons why I get so fed up with AP3 weapons...

Sorry to hear that, Shredder. GK may have the most natural hard counters to Grots (and Talos) of any army in 40K. Lots of Force/ID, Str 10, AND 2+ saves, which Grots can struggle to get through. I can see why you're less than enamored with Grots.

I am puzzled that they did so poorly in your games against non-GK opponents, though, particularly your game against Orks. Aren't Power Klaws Unwieldy?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sun Aug 30 2015, 03:59

During the psychic phase, how do you use your denial dice? I usually save all mine for Force against GK for precisely this reason.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sun Aug 30 2015, 06:57

Like most things, the effectivenss of grotesques has a heck of a lot to do with your opponents familiarity with the unit.

Last week I let a friend use my models to try out a covens list.  I took a level 2 librarian as my own HQ, rolled biomancy, and was actually disappointed I got enfeeble - At least until I realized that was probably the best thing ever.

As effective as grots are, they become frighteningly fragile with 1 less toughness.  All those krak missiles and lascannons your opponent doesn't know quite what to shoot at with will suddenly find them, and most likely wipe them off the board.

Fortunately I think psychic powers might be the only way to reduce toughness anymore.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sun Aug 30 2015, 07:30

Oh, if only!

Inquisitors have grenades that can reduce toughness, the Tau have a character who can do it, and I think Dark Angels and the AdMech both have equipment that can reduce it.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sun Aug 30 2015, 11:39

@sweetbacon wrote:

I am puzzled that they did so poorly in your games against non-GK opponents, though, particularly your game against Orks.  Aren't Power Klaws Unwieldy?  

They are, but that only matters if you can kill the Warboss before he can swing. To do so, you have to get through ~8 biker Nobz (with 4+ saves and FNP), a Painboy and then take all 3 wounds of the T6 warboss with a 4+ rerollable save and FNP. Even if I challenge with a Aberration or Archon, there's still a sergeant Nob to take the challenge (protecting the Painboy and Warboss). Finally, because they're T5, Grots are wounding them on 4s with no rerolls.

@Jimsolo wrote:
During the psychic phase, how do you use your denial dice?  I usually save all mine for Force against GK for precisely this reason.

Bear in mind that I generally don't use Grots (or other coven stuff) at all if I know the GK player is there.

Even then, from my experience dispelling any power is extremely unlikely. When you only get d6 dice, fishing for at least one 6 isn't exactly something I'd want to bet my expensive melee unit on. Neutral
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sun Aug 30 2015, 15:00

@Jimsolo wrote:
Oh, if only!

Inquisitors have grenades that can reduce toughness, the Tau have a character who can do it, and I think Dark Angels and the AdMech both have equipment that can reduce it.

Ah - I'm not really familiar with the inquisition or admech.  Come to think of it I haven't played against Tau in years either.

The dark angels rad grenades however got changed to do 2 wounds though on the roll of a 6.  A very welcome nerf from our perspective over 6th edition when just being hit with a blast weapon reduced grots to krak missile magnets.

The nurgle psychic power was the worst thing I normally ran into with grots since it's range 48", but it only has a 1 in 3 chance of reducing toughness.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sun Aug 30 2015, 15:12

I've toyed with the idea before of a CtA list that could kill units by reducing their Toughness to 0.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Tue Sep 01 2015, 01:44

Quote :
Anyway, is there any chance some of you (preferably those of you who've enjoyed great success Wink) could post your Grotesque lists? I'm mainly interested in 1500-1750pt lists.
Meant to post mine earlier but was at work and forgot. Heres a list I'll be running this weekend. It varies but it has the core that my lists often revolve around, tweaked to points limit and other factors. This is for a series of friendly games at 1.5k.

Dark Eldar CAD

HQ
archon- shadow field, huskblade, soul trap, hwg 140
1 court of the archon- sslyth, venom- 2 sc 90

TROOPS
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc 120
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc 120
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc 120

FA
5 scourges, 4 hwb 120
1 beastmasters- clawed fiend 30
razorwing jetfighter- 2 dc, sc, 4 ntm 140

HS
ravager, dark lances 125

Grotesquerie
haemonculus- agonizer, syndriqs sump 105
3 grotesques, aberration- agonizer, raider- dc 195
3 grotesques, aberration- agonizer, raider- dc 195

TOTAL- 1500


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