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 Grotesques, Death, and Taxes

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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Fri Aug 28 2015, 22:44

Had a game against my regular opponent today and once again my Grotesquerie was my MVP unit.  It killed four Lone Wolves in Terminator armor, five man Thunderwolf Cav squad with Wolf Lord (netting me Warlord kill), 20 Grey Hunters, and a Rhino, while also shrugging off a ton of my opponent's shooting.  And still had both squads left at the end of the game.  I think as a whole, DE are a high variance army, with one exception:  Grotesques.  They always perform for me and I've never regretted taking them.  They are as close to a sure thing (other than maybe Venoms) as it gets in our army.  

I'm curious if anybody has ever had their Grotesques underperform on a regular basis since the new codex came out?  

Also, please feel free to share your favorite tales of Grot heroics.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Fri Aug 28 2015, 22:49

Four grotesques without formation were slaughtering half of a guard army in their own. At first they died because I failed almost all feel no pain rolls, but after half of them were dead, it was quite the opposite!
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Fri Aug 28 2015, 22:56

Nice! I've also had success against low toughness horde-armies, like Guard, using Grots. They can mulch through Guardsmen like a hot knife through butter!
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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Fri Aug 28 2015, 23:03

Grotesquerie is auto-take for me. The only downside is the Haemi tax, and that's not too bad even then.

They have performed in every game I've brought them to. You can always, always start them on the table because you start with a jink for shrugging off some tough shots, and once you are dumped out of your raider (if you are) you can eat what shot you next turn. If you still have your ride, you can up and leave next turn and be 36" away.

Sure ID/str 10 is a thing, but everything has a counter. Grots have far less than many other units in the game.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Fri Aug 28 2015, 23:11

I had a single unit of grots in a raider weather the entire first turn of shooting from a Space Marine list. Only a single grot (and the archon) left alive, each with only a single wound, but they did it.

Typically, my grotesques wreck face. I've had a game where my grots showed up too late to actually do anything; the rest of my army had destroyed too much for it to matter. I've also had a game where an Eldar opponent successfully managed to avoid them until turn five or so. But by and large, they've proven very successful.

I've run several configurations. Small groups and DE HQs out the Webway, bodyguards for HQs in a raider, Grotesquerie, and 10-man grot bomb, all successful.

So much so that my local TO changed his rules to ban 3rd party miniatures. (I'm the only person in the group who uses them, so it's not hard to come to a conclusion of bias...)
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Fri Aug 28 2015, 23:13

@Woozl wrote:
Sure ID/str 10 is a thing, but everything has a counter. Grots have far less than many other units in the game.

Yep, everything can be countered. In fact, I lost three Grots today to TWC Thunderhammers, but next round of CC, I killed them before they got a chance to swing again. With the exception of some MCs/GMCs and Walkers, a lot of things that would double out Grots are Unwieldy, so they usually don't get many opportunities to swing against them in CC. Plus, if we roll the +1T on Latest Experiment, Grots become immune to one of their hardest counters.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Fri Aug 28 2015, 23:17

@Jimsolo wrote:
So much so that my local TO changed his rules to ban 3rd party miniatures.  (I'm the only person in the group who uses them, so it's not hard to come to a conclusion of bias...)

Wow, Jim, this seems pretty blatantly unfair on the TO's part. Particularly since the GW models are ridiculously expensive (and ridiculously posed). It's not like DE have an abundance of good units, you can just substitute in their place. I take it the TO has been on the receiving end of some Grot charges on a few occasions?
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Fri Aug 28 2015, 23:50

One of my most memorable games was a doubles game. 4 grots and my archon got their ride shot down behind enemy lines. Then a night scythe crashed on top them after which they were assaulted by swarms of gants from dual tervigons spawners + troops. They then fought their way through 88 gants total. It was the most epic stand I've ever had.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Fri Aug 28 2015, 23:55

@Brom wrote:
One of my most memorable games was a doubles game.  4 grots and my archon got their ride shot down behind enemy  lines.  Then a night scythe crashed on top them after which they were assaulted by swarms of gants from dual tervigons spawners + troops. They then fought their way through 88 gants total. It was the most epic stand I've ever had.

Oh man, that is great.  I'm sure your opponent watched this unfold with a delicious combination of amazement and horror.
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 00:11

I had 4 grotesques and a succubus take down 42 ork boys charging them, before they went down themselves. I knew I'd lose them, but I hadn't expected them to take out almost two entire blobs.

Yesterday I played them against Necrons. They were charged by a unit of Wraiths with some character letting them reroll 1's on saves, and had a 4+ Re-animate Protocol. He rolled porely on his attacks and only gave me a couple of wounds (I had cronos nearby for 4+ FnP), and in return I signed of by rolling 7 6's for Instant Kill. He proceeded to roll 4 2's on saves, and failing his now 5+ RPs. THAT was awesome Very Happy
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 00:28

@Sigmaril wrote:
I had 4 grotesques and a succubus take down 42 ork boys charging them, before they went down themselves. I knew I'd lose them, but I hadn't expected them to take out almost two entire blobs.

Yesterday I played them against Necrons. They were charged by a unit of Wraiths with some character letting them reroll 1's on saves, and had a 4+ Re-animate Protocol. He rolled porely on his attacks and only gave me a couple of wounds (I had cronos nearby for 4+ FnP), and in return I signed of by rolling 7 6's for Instant Kill. He proceeded to roll 4 2's on saves, and failing his now 5+ RPs. THAT was awesome Very Happy

Nice! I've only played two games against Decurion Necrons but both times, the dreaded Wraiths hit a brick wall in the form of my Grots. Grots don't get mentioned much when people talk about elite assault units like Wraiths, TWC, and Khorne Hounds (or whatever they're called), but they can go toe-to-toe with almost any of the feared heavy hitters out there. They may not always win, but they tend to bog down and tie up whatever they get their big meaty arms around.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 00:49

@sweetbacon wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
So much so that my local TO changed his rules to ban 3rd party miniatures.  (I'm the only person in the group who uses them, so it's not hard to come to a conclusion of bias...)

Wow, Jim, this seems pretty blatantly unfair on the TO's part.  Particularly since the GW models are ridiculously expensive (and ridiculously posed).  It's not like DE have an abundance of good units, you can just substitute in their place.  I take it the TO has been on the receiving end of some Grot charges on a few occasions?  

Actually, never! He's been worked over by some Freakshow business a few times and insists its all cheese, but I think the grotesque thing came from the league he ran. I had the grots from week 1, and they were definitely the MVPs of the list.
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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 01:06

Are Grots worth taking outside of coven supplement or Grotesqueire? Seems like they are a good dark eldar unit, but a great coven unit
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 01:19

@Nariaklizhar wrote:
Are Grots worth taking outside of coven supplement or Grotesqueire? Seems like they are a good dark eldar unit, but a great coven unit
They're fine in both. But with vanilla DE they need a babysitter, or their Ld will bring them down. PfP from Vanilla bring them Furious Charge and Rage, Coven bring them Fear, IWND and Hatred, both bring Fearless at some point. Imo, Coven PfP is better, but only just. The added bonus of Freakish Spectacle and Grotesquerie are great, though.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 02:04

Grotesquerie grots are best, although vanilla ones can be nice too. They do need the babysitter, though. It's a necessity.
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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 05:57

Great threat giving our ugly experimented-on dark children some love! I'm currently almost finished building 6 of them myself and can't wait to try out the Grotequerie! I've proxied a min sized squad before and while they did get killed from tons of close range shooting before being able to do anything in one game, in another they mulched through a fearless guardsman tarpit just fine Smile

Do y'all have a preferred load out weapon wise? I thought running them stock is most point effective, with an aberration with scissor hands if you've got the points.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 06:01

Can you convert a games workshop model to be grotesques, Jim? That's not a third party model and not as expensive as the official grot one.

Normally, I don't give them any weaponry. I modeled Liquifier, but I don't take them usually. I've never tried an agoniser on the boss, but after a bike squad kept them busy for three rounds of combat last game, I consider it against Marines.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 06:46

@BlackCadian: I prefer an Aberration with a Scissorhand. It gives me the ability to handle vehicles more easily, and it means I don't have to run away from Walkers, since both the abby and the haemmy can affect most of them. Liquifier guns are just a waste of points.

@CptMetal: Already handled! I converted a squad of 4 from Skaven Rat Ogres (Ogre Kingdoms Ogres and Crypt Horrors are other good picks, btw) and picked up another squad of 4 3rd edition Grotesques in a trade. Personally, both running with and against them I'd prefer 3rd party models that are the right size, but if I'm required to use the smaller, old school minis and gain an advantage of a shorter, narrower profile, then who am I to argue? Very Happy
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 12:52

When I consider what my Grotesques have done, I can't help but wonder if I'm even looking at the same unit to the rest of you.

I can recall maybe 2 games where my Grots won my the match, and even those are really pushing it. One was against orks, and it was an overfed Archon who did most of the work (but let's count that one anyway, since they pulled their weight at least). The other was against CSMs - where they were just overkill as my other units had already systematically removed the real threats (including the 2 Maulerfiends that would have utterly maimed said grotesques), so they did little more than run in and take the glory by killing some CSMs.

All other games they died ignominiously. Twice now I've had a Grot squad and character wiped by 5 Skitarii Ruststalkers in a single round of combat. There's a particular Warboss who's eaten his fair share. A full squad got eaten by a dreadnought that refused to die to shooting (these are all Coven ones, btw), a non-coven unit with succubus bounced off a Nob squad and got ripped to pieces in return. I've had Urien and a full grot squad lose to ~10 ork boyz, a painboy and a warboss without S10. The list goes on.

I really wish mine were the unstoppable titans everyone else's seem to be, but 90% they just don't do anything.
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 13:41

@The Shredder wrote:
When I consider what my Grotesques have done, I can't help but wonder if I'm even looking at the same unit to the rest of you.

I can recall maybe 2 games where my Grots won my the match, and even those are really pushing it. One was against orks, and it was an overfed Archon who did most of the work (but let's count that one anyway, since they pulled their weight at least). The other was against CSMs - where they were just overkill as my other units had already systematically removed the real threats (including the 2 Maulerfiends that would have utterly maimed said grotesques), so they did little more than run in and take the glory by killing some CSMs.

All other games they died ignominiously. Twice now I've had a Grot squad and character wiped by 5 Skitarii Ruststalkers in a single round of combat. There's a particular Warboss who's eaten his fair share. A full squad got eaten by a dreadnought that refused to die to shooting (these are all Coven ones, btw), a non-coven unit with succubus bounced off a Nob squad and got ripped to pieces in return. I've had Urien and a full grot squad lose to ~10 ork boyz, a painboy and a warboss without S10. The list goes on.

I really wish mine were the unstoppable titans everyone else's seem to be, but 90% they just don't do anything.

I can also add from experience that parking them right in from of Tank Commander Pasks Punisher is a very bad idea for survivability Wink

Grotesques are by no means an unstoppable force. The trick lies in picking your battles with care. Many enemies are very bad for grotesques. If possible I will always avoid getting engaged with things like Walkers, 2+ Armour guys (and to a certain extent 3+ as well if they are good fighters), Invis guys, Force Weapon guys, S10 guys, stomp'ers, etc.
Most armies have soft, squishy fellows they can rip through like there's no tomorrow, but if I do not have any targets for them, I simply won't use them for combat. As long as they're Raider'ed up they have good mobility to get objectives, and if not, they'll hunt for a good ruin somewhere to hunker down in. Failing this too, I'm most likely loosing the battle by a large margin anyway.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 14:04

The issue I have is that the units with S10 are usually the same units that I have trouble dealing with at range, if you see what I mean. The Warboss-painboy-biker squad in particular just doesn't die to ranged fire.

If they don't have any targets, then you're paying a hell of a lot when a Lhamaean in a venom could have accomplished the same thing. Neutral


Anyway, is there any chance some of you (preferably those of you who've enjoyed great success Wink) could post your Grotesque lists? I'm mainly interested in 1500-1750pt lists.

Mainly I'm curious to see how you spend your points, and what you use to back up your Grots.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 15:01

My grots don't always perform well, especially against highly mobile forces. But, they are cheap for what you get and with an archon they can be a solid counter to plenty of units and strategies like aggressive DS too.

They are a weird animal but great by design, much better than say terminators IME. Better in many ways than units like death company and sometimes even twc too I'd wager, due partly to our amazing rides but also to init 4 ID weapons and immunity to grav. Distraction carnifexes with teeth and one use superb mobility really, that can be joined by ICs. Base 9 toughness 5 fnp wounds for 160 transported in jinking ds or t1 delivery rides is a steal and about as good as you'll find anywhere in the game. That's the beauty of grots.. they're disposable but not often easily disposed of.
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 15:44

This is the list I'm bringing to a tournament next sunday.

Dark Artisan Formation [350 pts]
Haemonculus w. Webway Portal [WARLORD]
Talos
Cronos w. Spirit Probe

Grotesquerie Formation [500 pts]
Haemonculus
4 Grotesques w. Aberration upgrade and Scissorhand, in Raider
4 Grotesques w. Aberration upgrade and Scissorhand, in Raider

Corpsethief Claw Formation [650]
5 Talos w. Haywire Blasters

The Dark Artisan usually deploy just behind the Corpsethief Claw to provide the 4+ (reroll 1s) FnP from turn 1. The WWP is just in case of really bad match-ups.

Remember that the game already start when placing objectives. I always go for 3-4 objectives in fairly close proximity. That way the corpsethief can cover them, and harvest additional victory points if my opponent tries to take them.

The Raiders with Grotesques often claim a flank each and boost the enemy deployment zone, in hunt for squishy targets (the one without Haemonculus waits a turn for Fearless), or to lure enemies away from the remaining objectives.

Edit: I've played it so far against an ETC-style Decurion list twice, and once vs AM with an Imperial Knight. All competent opponents, and won them all comfortably.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 15:47

Interesting list.

Out of curiosity, what do you do when faced with GKs?
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques, Death, and Taxes   Sat Aug 29 2015, 15:54

Beat their squishy heads through their bellies!

Their Force weapons at initiative is S6, i believe? So odds are against them doing a lot of Wounds. I return fire with 30 S7/AP2 strikes. that ought to do it enough so that the hammers don't get their turn. If the odds are to great in his favour, I will stall any engagement until turn 5 if possible. Here the one unit of Grots and the Dark Artisan formation gets Eternal Warrior. Turn 6 the rest get it too.

That said, I do not have any Grey Knights in my immediate meta, and I don't expect to see any at the tournament either.
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