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 Perfection of Agony?

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Perfection of Agony?   Sun Nov 22 2015, 13:18

The Shredder wrote:
Rokuro wrote:

Pseudo-rending á la Monofilament, so just ignoring armor saves on 6's, would make more sense.

Do you think that would be enough though? It's a decent bonus, but I'm not convinced it would enough to make wyches worth a damn. I think you'd need to give them Shred as well, or let them pseudo-rend on 5s. Otherwise I don't think you're getting enough cannon for your glass, as it were.

...

I guess I just feel that if I'm going to the trouble of getting a T3 unit with no save across the board and into melee, I'd still want a bit more than 3 S3 attacks with pseudo-rending.

I agree that takes more than ignoring armor saves on 6's to make Wyches good, but I don't think getting +D3 on penetration rolls of 6 is what they need.
Rather than just being more powerful, I would want Wyches to be actually good at being Wyches. Going by the fluff, they specialize in close-ranged anti-infantry combat and defense on the basis of not letting the enemy hit them. That's what Wyches are intended for in the game as well, but they currently lack the tools to pull it off.

I'd imagin in a well-designed Wych Cult army, the basic Wyches would serve as a distraction more than anything else, while Raiders and Venoms provide fire support, Beastmasters move in on the flanks, Hellions deepstrike in to cause chaos and pick on convenient targets, and Bloodbrides, Incubi and Reavers go for kills where it really counts.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Perfection of Agony?   Sun Nov 22 2015, 13:52

To be honest I think shred is more realistic than rending.  Wyches may be top-tier hand to hand specialist, but against marines they're still basically trying to kill a turtle while he's still in his shell (if that turtle were a 7 foot tall 350 pound superman).  So in that case I'm fine with them being a tarpit, as long as wyches are great at it, and tie up more than their points reliably.

In general I think shred would be more balanced, and possibly give them some ap5/6 weapons like other eldar melee specialists get (scorpions, hellions).  In other words, that spinning cart wheel of death probably should bounce off of a marine unit, but anything lighter than ork boys shouldn't even slow it down.

As for making them a tarpit - I'd like to see GW go all out and give them a full time dodge (5++) vs all attacks, that improves based on how cumbersome their opponent's armor is.  So basically it stays 5++ vs enemies making attacks while in flak armor or worse, but improves to 3++ vs attacks made by someone in power armor, and 2++ vs someone in terminator armor.

I don't expect this (or anything like it) to actually happen, ever.

The other day I was reading a black library book (2nd soul drinkers book I believe), and a unit of wyches was mentioned in it over and over.  They kept harping on how awesome they were, until they hit combat...

spoiler:
 
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Perfection of Agony?   Sun Nov 22 2015, 14:14

For a unit as fragile as wyches, I don't think Shred *and* Pseudo-Rending would be unreasonable.

But then, I think all DE units should have Rending or Pseudo-Rending in melee.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Perfection of Agony?   Sun Nov 22 2015, 14:34

stilgar27 wrote:
To be honest I think shred is more realistic than rending.  Wyches may be top-tier hand to hand specialist, but against marines they're still basically trying to kill a turtle while he's still in his shell (if that turtle were a 7 foot tall 350 pound superman).  So in that case I'm fine with them being a tarpit, as long as wyches are great at it, and tie up more than their points reliably.

In general I think shred would be more balanced, and possibly give them some ap5/6 weapons like other eldar melee specialists get (scorpions, hellions).  In other words, that spinning cart wheel of death probably should bounce off of a marine unit, but anything lighter than ork boys shouldn't even slow it down.

Shred would only let them re-roll to wound though. And with Strength 3 AP -, that sadly doesn't mean much.
Fluffwise, the key is not how hard they hit anyway, but where they hit. Wyches kill heavily armored enemies by stabbing between the plates. That's also why Lelith ignores armor saves altogether; because she so incredibly good at this - literally what every Wych aspires to.

The Shredder wrote:
For a unit as fragile as wyches, I don't think Shred *and* Pseudo-Rending would be unreasonable.

But then, I think all DE units should have Rending or Pseudo-Rending in melee.

Our other units aren't trained for this fighting style though: Warriors and Scourges are marksmen, Reavers and Hellions do drive-by slashing, Wracks rely on poison, Grotesques and Beasts on brute strength, Incubi on weapons that just cut through everything, and Mandrakes... Well, the nature of their weapons would actually justify rending.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Perfection of Agony?   Sun Nov 22 2015, 14:39

Rokuro wrote:

Our other units aren't trained for this fighting style though: Warriors and Scourges are marksmen, Reavers and Hellions do drive-by slashing, Wracks rely on poison, Grotesques and Beasts on brute strength, Incubi on weapons that just cut through everything, and Mandrakes... Well, the nature of their weapons would actually justify rending.

It was more meant to justify them finding gaps/chinks in the enemy armour.

Though, Coven stuff would probably have to be excluded.

I agree that Rending would be nice on Mandrakes. But then, so would a 5++ and assault grenades. Rolling Eyes
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Perfection of Agony?   Sun Nov 22 2015, 15:41

Wych special rule - Armour saves taken against any hits caused by a Wych in melee suffer a -2 penalty on the dice roll.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Perfection of Agony?   Sun Nov 22 2015, 15:46

Count Adhemar wrote:
Wych special rule - Armour saves taken against any hits caused by a Wych in melee suffer a -2 penalty on the dice roll.

Hah! That would be awsome.

Reminds me a bit of the old rule for Khorne Axes (I think it was axes, anyway) - where armour better than 4+ was treated as 4+.
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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: Perfection of Agony?   Sun Nov 22 2015, 15:48

All Wyches have Wyche blades: Strength user, ap 5. All to wound rolls of six are ap 3.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Perfection of Agony?   Sun Nov 22 2015, 17:16

All wyches have Stomp. They deserve it.

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