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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 14:55

"Well, you won some good victories in the past, so really you're overdue this humiliating defeat and years of subjugation at our hands."

Wow man you really took the title of this thread literally.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 15:38

@Sulmo wrote:
"Well, you won some good victories in the past, so really you're overdue this humiliating defeat and years of subjugation at our hands."

Wow man you really took the title of this thread literally.

Not much else you can do for wyches. They are, without a doubt, worthless in this edition.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 17:18

@acolyte wrote:
I think wyches are not a top unit really just not right now. Until turn 4 when a 4+ invul and fnp makes them annoying as hell in combat. So how can we get to that point ? Working backwards we want them in their raiders on t3 and assaulting t4 something they can kill which is really just basic troops

Which is my main problem with them. I can work with them being fragile as hell but not when there's no payoff. They should hit hard but they struggle to take out even a basic trooper that's half their point cost.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 17:26

I'd also like to say that this is one of the reasons I find the new PfP mechanic so utterly appalling.

It should be rewarding us for getting into the action early and causing as much pain as possible. Instead, we have a system that rewards our assault units for sitting on their hands for 4 turns, at which point it grudgingly allows them access to their special rules.

This is the exact opposite of what Power from Pain should be.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 17:42

@The Shredder wrote:
I'd also like to say that this is one of the reasons I find the new PfP mechanic so utterly appalling.

It should be rewarding us for getting into the action early and causing as much pain as possible. Instead, we have a system that rewards our assault units for sitting on their hands for 4 turns, at which point it grudgingly allows them access to their special rules.

This is the exact opposite of what Power from Pain should be.

I dunno. I kind of feel like the new PFP does it better. Under the old system, I rarely got Pain Tokens on my units unless they started with them.

I think the new system is built on a solid foundation. Our transports, rules, and upgrades make it easy for us to get a good, demoralizing alpha strike. If our opponents can rebound from that, they can rally and still win. The PfP gives us the promise of a late game return if we start slipping behind, though, as our forces are gradually absorbing the pain and fear of the battlefield.

The bookkeeping is much simpler, and I find it gives more buffs to more units for more turns than I was getting under the old system. (For the most part.)
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 17:53

@Jimsolo wrote:

I dunno.  I kind of feel like the new PFP does it better.  Under the old system, I rarely got Pain Tokens on my units unless they started with them.  

The old system was far from perfect, but I think it was much closer to the mark.

@Jimsolo wrote:

I think the new system is built on a solid foundation.  Our transports, rules, and upgrades make it easy for us to get a good, demoralizing alpha strike.  If our opponents can rebound from that, they can rally and still win.  The PfP gives us the promise of a late game return if we start slipping behind, though, as our forces are gradually absorbing the pain and fear of the battlefield.

That's the thing though - we're not rewarded for anything we do. The current PfP mechanic is utterly detached from anything happening in the battle. Our alpha strike could obliterate half the enemy army, and yet that apparently causes no more pain than if our troops just sat in their Raiders picking their noses.

@Jimsolo wrote:

The bookkeeping is much simpler

Not to worry - it compensates by being really, really boring. Neutral

Out of interest, how would you feel about a system more along the lines of Blood Points? So, unit kills are counted (including vehicles), and give army-wide bonuses (rather than being limited to individual units, as in 5th).
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 20:13

I'd be okay with that, I suppose. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how it turned out.
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Kinjallo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 16:27

The problem with the complaints is that they're mostly justified.
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ThePhish
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 18:46

7th edition codex, page 6.  "For all their elegant lethality, however, a Dark Eldar raiding party is a fragile thing, and a Commorrite overlord must fight with all of their cunning to achieve crushing victory over the lesser races."

6th edition was more of the same.  Lethal, fragile, requires skill and cunning to win...

5th edition, "In the right hands, the Dark Eldar are a deadly foe, but make no mistake, they are not an easy army to use.  Other armies can rely on nice thick armour or large numbers of models to cope with their leader's errors of judgement, but not the Dark Eldar.  The troops that make up a Dark Eldar army are fragile, and it takes cunning and guile to use them well."

All of this is in the first few pages of every codex that has ever been released for Dark Eldar.  It's not anything new.  I couldn't find it, but there's a reference in one of the older 'dexes that I really liked that basically referred to the Dark Eldar as a connoisseur's army.  ie. If you want a point and click army, go play space marines and stop whining.  Suck it up, and find a way to win, or go play something else.  You were warned at the beginning of the codex.  

That's why all of the bandwagoners didn't last long when the new shiny models came out and everyone went and bought some Dark Eldar.  They found out that it was difficult to win with, and sold their armies or sat them on a shelf.  They are 'designed' to be difficult to win with, per the codex.  It's intentional, which is why GW doesn't do anything about it because they made the dex, told you it was hard, and turned it loose.  

If you buy a blue car, do you return to the dealer to complain that it's blue?  No, because he would tell you that, "you knew it was blue when you bought it.  If you don't like it, don't drive it."  Or more likely, "I can paint that a different color, for a price."  But are you going to like it when it changes?

Therefore, imo, the complaints are not justified and should take the crying elsewhere, because the users were warned nearly 10 years in advance.  As has been mentioned, positive feedback on what works and what doesn't are the best forms of help, and coincidentally, seem right at home in the "Dark Eldar Tactics" thread.  There are people winning with Dark Eldar.  Learn from them.  That's why this website exists.  There may only be a few viable ways of winning with this edition, but that isn't anything new for DE.  They're just different tactics than last edition.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 19:04

Wow.

Tell you what, how about you come back when you've removed that massive stick from your ass?
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ThePhish
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 19:09

@The Shredder wrote:
Wow.

Tell you what, how about you come back when you've removed that massive stick from your ass?

LOL. I probably could have made that shorter.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 19:28

It's not about it being short, it's about it being arrogant and illogical.

Being an underdog army is one thing, but having half the units in codex be utterly worthless is quite another. And variations on 'L2P' arguments are just ignoring the issue.

The best example I can give would be the difference between a computer/console game that's deliberately hard and requires considerable skill to master, and one which is hard because it's incredibly buggy, and randomly crashes and corrupts all your save files.

One is intentionally hard, but can be overcome with skill. The other is hard because the designers suck at their jobs.

If every DE unit and piece of wargear was about as strong as the good ones, then I expect you'd have far fewer complaints. It would still be an underdog army and a challenge to play (let's be honest here - even our best units pale in comparison to those of most other armies), but at least you'd have a lot of viable options. But, when half the units are bad to the point of being unusable - with no useful role or function whatsoever - then it's just bad design. It goes from 'underdog' to 'underdog that's had 3 limbs amputated and half its teeth kicked in'. Neutral
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 19:44

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 19:50

** Disclaimer - I've given up on dark eldar altogether and have been enjoying my Renegades and Heretics horde and a small scout marine MSU.

Anymore I feel like we'd be better if they just squat'd dark eldar rather than put out the 7th edition codex.  It'd be so easy too;  Cataclysm In Commoragh - also eaten by tyranids - here are some suggested uses for your models.

GW never really cared to put any effort into the dark kin.  I knew from the moment I saw those god awful 3rd edition box set models that they just didn't care.  Even the quality control was amazingly bad on them, with misalignment and mold lines everywhere (though not the space marines in the same box for some reason).

Then of course we went nearly a dozen years without a new codex.  Because GW obviously never cared. at all. about this army.  The sad reality is that I'd probably prefer that antiquated 3rd (or 3.5) edition codex over our current one.  I'll have to dig mine out but I do remember that at least we had options.

That (1998?) box set was so disappointing to me in fact that I actually rage quit 40k for some time over the change of direction.  The overall strength of the new rules, and the awesomeness of plastic ork kits did bring me back eventually.

GeeDubs has migrated to a "just sell plastic/failcast, noone actually plays this game" strategy, so they probably won't squat anything ever again.  Instead we end up with the current edition; which turns what is supposed to be one of the most plentiful and sophisticated societies in the warhammer universe into an afterthought on the tabletop.

There are still some very nice models, but no real character, and a severe deficit when compared to virtually any other book.

If only the tyrannids would nom us out of our misery...
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 20:15

Tyranid in Commoragh... Infinite swarms of tyranids larva-born vs infinite swarm of artificially pod-grew kabalite. Could be interesting....
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 20:20

Have there been any battles between DE and 'nids in the fluff?
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 20:28

To continue derailing the thread - ya there are actually tyranids in commoragh pretty much all the time, at least in the fluff.

There are quite a few mentions of tyranids, cut off from the hive mind, kept to fight in the arenas.  I also seem to remember a story in which a beast master takes direct control of one.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 20:30

@stilgar27 wrote:
To continue derailing the thread - ya there are actually tyranids in commoragh pretty much all the time, at least in the fluff.

There are quite a few mentions of tyranids, cut off from the hive mind, kept to fight in the arenas.  I also seem to remember a story in which a beast master takes direct control of one.

Interesting.

So then, do the DE raid tyranid-infested worlds? Or, do nids sometimes invade just as the DE are raiding?

Honestly curious here.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 20:48

I think I remember a story where the true kin assaulted a world during a Tyraniden invasion to get their hands on some of the bigger ones.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 23:00

So I started running a competitive list, its a Freakshow fusion with lots of anti-tank. Killed three Knights on the drop, that's better performance than PureDar, or D/Eldar Eldar Primary. Ran into trouble with Daemons, but could have won the game if not for silly mistakes.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 23:02

DE love taking nids. The hive mind doesn't penetrate the Webway, so the bugs are cut off and hosed. (Eventually they dwindle and die off.)

There's a whole big thing in the Covens supplement fluff about how Urien Rakarth pulled an entire planet infested with nids into the webway so the DE can harvest them whenever they like.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 23:10

@The Shredder wrote:

So then, do the DE raid tyranid-infested worlds? Or, do nids sometimes invade just as the DE are raiding?

Honestly curious here.

I imagine it's mostly if not entirely the former, the one thing the dark eldar seem to be able to manage consistently is to keep control of their pocket dimensions.  Then again I'm sure some ambitious so-and-so has probably engineered an invasion in every now and then to thin out his rivals.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Tue Aug 25 2015, 23:24

@Sulmo wrote:
So I started running a competitive list, its a Freakshow fusion with lots of anti-tank. Killed three Knights on the drop.

That's impressive! I'd like to hear how you did that/see your list.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 26 2015, 01:12

The Dark Alliance

Dark Eldar RSR

Archon (+ Shadow Field, + Agoniser, + Haywire Grenades, + WWP): 165 points
Court (+ Medusa (x3), + Venom (+ Splinter Cannon)): 140 points
3 Mandrakes: 36 points
5 Warriors (+ Venom (+ Splinter Cannon), + Blaster): 120 points
5 Warriors (+ Venom (+ Splinter Cannon), + Blaster): 120 points
Razorwing (+ Dark Lances (x2)): 140 points
Venom (+ Splinter Cannon): 65 points
Raider (+ Dark Lance): 60 points
2 Talos (+ Haywire Blasters (x2), + Ichor Injector (x1)): 270 points

Eldar Allies

Farseer (+ Singing Spear): 105 points
5 Fire Dragons: 110 points
3 Windrider Jetbikes (+ Scatter Lasers (x3)): 81 points
Hemlock: 185 points

Cast of Players

Shadowseer (+ Mask of Secrets): 75 points
Death Jester: 60 points
5 Harlequins (+ Master (+ Fusion Pistol, + Caress)): 118 points









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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 26 2015, 03:33

To add to the Nid discussion the maiden world Lethidia, the one that Urien Rakarth stole and brought to Commorragh was under attack, and just about over run, by Hive Fleet Leviathan. It was ostensibly stolen so that the haemonculi could study tyranids of Leviathan, and so they could use and sell exodites off as it is cannon that exodite and CW Eldar slaves are the only ones who have the ability to make certain of our weapons.
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