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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Thu Aug 20 2015, 20:35

@Massaen wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
I mean, with regard to Corpsethief and DA, Eldar have the best MC in the game - boasting gargantuan status, T8 with FNP, S10 melee attacks, stomp, 2 D-weapons and options for 2 scatter lasers (which can all shoot different targets), and a 12" move. And, it costs considerably less than either DA or CTC.

Just a quick note - its a considerable grey area about it firing more than 2 weapons...

Haven't all major tournaments ruled 'yes' on that?

And yeah, both GCs and LOW are restricted or banned at many tournaments, which is a major downfall of the WK.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Thu Aug 20 2015, 20:46

"That's right, Eldar players, we're ruling that your Wraithknights can fire all 4 of their weapons. Or at least they would... if we hand't already banned them! Trololololol." Laughing
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 01:47

@Jimsolo wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
I mean, with regard to Corpsethief and DA, Eldar have the best MC in the game - boasting gargantuan status, T8 with FNP, S10 melee attacks, stomp, 2 D-weapons and options for 2 scatter lasers (which can all shoot different targets), and a 12" move. And, it costs considerably less than either DA or CTC.

Just a quick note - its a considerable grey area about it firing more than 2 weapons...

Haven't all major tournaments ruled 'yes' on that?

And yeah, both GCs and LOW are restricted or banned at many tournaments, which is a major downfall of the WK.

If you mean major tournaments in the USA then yes - except the lists posted just last week on BoLS with 4 or 5 wraith knights that won major events!

In Australia - we have a national FAQ that rules a max of 2 weapons AND restricted the use of GC/SHV

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Sulmo
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PostSubject: List   Fri Aug 21 2015, 15:03

So, here's the list I've been running: has done well against AdMech, Tau, Necrons, Newdar, Knights and Marines. Highlights have been tabling IK and a Wraithheavy Newdar list. The last game I played against Pod Marines I lost, but I could have won if I put down the drakes and an empty Venom; I deployed the DA in ruin with trait and it did nothing except absorb the whole game's enemy shooting taking a wound on a Talos and tying up a CM. Had they been freed up they would have caused problems. Strategy revolves around null deploy through drakes, with the Archon going with Medusa or scourges, depending on enemy armour. Btw I misquoted a rule before: Hawks can only fire one haywire grenade in shooting phase, making them at best a hth distraction against IK.


Dark Eldar RSR

Archon (+ Shadow Field, + Agoniser, + Haywire Grenades, + Armour of Misery, + WWP): 180 points
Court (+ Medusa (x4), + Venom (+ Splinter Cannon)): 165 points
3 Mandrakes: 36 points
5 Trueborn (+ Venom (+ Splinter Cannon), + Blaster (x4)): 180 points
5 Warriors (+ Venom (+ Splinter Cannon), + Blaster): 120 points
5 Warriors (+ Venom (+ Splinter Cannon), + Blaster): 120 points
3 Reavers (+ Cluster Caltrops, + Heat Lance): 73 points
3 Reavers (+ Cluster Caltrops, + Heat Lance): 73 points
5 Scourges (+ Heat Lances (x4)): 120 points
Venom (+ Splinter Cannon): 65 points
Razorwing (+ Dark Lances (x2), + Night Shields): 155 points
Void Raven: 160 points

Dark Artisan

Haemonculus (+ WWP, + Nightmare Doll): 140 points
Cronos (+ Spirit Probe): 125 points
Talos (+ Ichor Injector, + T.L. Heat Lance): 135 points
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 15:19

Where does the Archon go?
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 15:27

With Medusa or Scourges depending on opponent. Archon will often disembark from Venom after DS, forcing opponent to split fire. With scourges, he sits at the front, tanking or making them a less attractive option for assault. Between Haywire, Heat Lance OW and then Haywire in assault he is enough of a deterrence to Knights or walkers. In one of my games he took a couple of wounds of a WK after leaving the Medusa, which had melted some D-Scythes and Guardians on the drop. He's expensive for sure, but there are so many other units in the army that can threaten your opponent, by focusing on him they have to ignore the DA, or intercepts/skyfire that should be going into the DA, or the flyers, are going into the Archon instead.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 15:49

In this set up I've found a good tactic (worked well against foot Eldar and Tau) was to drop, melt stuff disembark the Archon, shooting from the rest of the army knocked most units down >25% then they would fail the resultant moral checks, on account of the Armour of Misery. Not a reliable strategy, but dropping the Archon in the middle of an enemy gunline can hae this effect. Against Tau I pulled this off, whilst Venoms knocked out markerlights and a bomb from the Raven killed a squad of marker drones led by Commander. A tide intercepted the Raven, but he jinked and survived. The return fire from the Tau killed nothing and then in my following turn I was able to finish off the tides with Venoms/darklight spam and then assault.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 15:58

This worked on Marines too, I was able to run somes devs, bikes and scouts off the board using this tactic. The clincher was the Freakish spectcale bubble from the DA.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 16:24

So I personally agree that there is far too much negativity in the forums these days, generally I open the page, glance at the topics to see that it's just 5 new complaint/wishlist threads (I thought you're not supposed to post a new thread for a topic that's already open? ) and then I close the page.

I also think it bears noting that a few vocal detractors in particular can be quite vehement in spouting their derisive vitriol at any who try to defend their position that DE are not unplayable garbage.

I know limiting that free speech would shut down some avenues of discussion, but let's be honest, letting them speak like that does exactly the same.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 16:31

Whilst, in contrast, those who dismiss legitimate complaints as "derisive vitriol" are obviously the best thing for any forum. Rolling Eyes
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 16:35

@The Shredder wrote:
Whilst, in contrast, those who dismiss legitimate complaints as "derisive vitriol" are obviously the best thing for any forum. Rolling Eyes

There's a big difference between legitimate complaints and telling people they're wrong, their choices are garbage and offering no constructive discussion whatsoever though. There seems to have been a big increase in the number of replies I see like that.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 16:35

I'm not starting an argument here and hijacking this man's thread.

I will leave it at: there is a stark difference between a legitimate complaint and what I call vitriol. The latter normally involving sarcasm and thinly veiled insults.

If anyone is unable or refuses to see the difference than I think they need a talk.

I will not be posting anything pursuent to this conversation.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 16:49

@Mr Believer wrote:

There's a big difference between legitimate complaints and telling people they're wrong, their choices are garbage and offering no constructive discussion whatsoever though. There seems to have been a big increase in the number of replies I see like that.

I'll be honest - I certainly haven't seen many of the replies you're talking about.

The thing is though, let's say "complainers" tell the "praisers" that they're wrong. Okay, not particularly productive, but then nor is the praisers telling complainers that they're wrong.

There really does seem to be this bizarre one-sidedness whereby those who praise the codex think its fine to tell complainers that they're wrong, but hate when it happens to them.

Furthermore, this goes even beyond that. Now we have the praisers saying that, not only are the complainers outright wrong, but that they're so wrong that they should lose the right to even voice their opinions on a forum. Do you really not see the hypocrisy here?

I'm sure that at various times I've either told others that they were wrong, or at the very least suggested such. Just as many people have done to me. On a forum, it's kind of inevitable. However, I've never once said that those people who I consider wrong shouldn't be allowed to continue voicing their opinions. I'm sure I've expressed bafflement at people praising GW, but I've never started a thread to say that such people should be removed from the forum on account of being delusional.

Again, there is a huge difference between saying that someone is wrong (which, in a debate, is practically a given), and saying that they shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinion.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 18:09

Btw I never said complaints should be moderated.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 18:12

Anyhow back to the topic.

You could add some Eldar allies to the list. I would drop the empty Venom, take some Jetbikes, amalgamate the reavers, add a Skyrunner Farseer, replace the Scourges with Fire Dragons and maybe the Raven with a Crimson Hunter if I wanted more anti-air.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 18:37

No, but you said they should be combined into one thread. Other people took up the mantle that they should be banned outright. I'm not really going to even entertain those people since by and large other people in this thread have established why I think they are wrong, and I already said why I think you were wrong in the first place: There is no way to combine those threads without destroying the tactical discussions that sprung up in those threads. Those discussions are what make those threads valuable and combining them would destroy that flow.


Additionally please edit your posts rather than double posting.


As for your comment and getting back on topic, if you are going to amalgamate your reavers into larger less numerous units what do you intend to use them for? Are they just a wound pool for your Farseer? Do you intend to get them into CC? If the later I personally prefer the banshee mask Autarch approach.

As for trading Scourges for fire dragons, I prefer Jump platforms with melta and lancing over just melta. and with a bunch of EJB you have a really good means of providing roving LOS blockers for things like deepstriking scourges.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 19:35

Limiting complaints to one thread would be stifling a specific group of individuals, same as the reverse.

However I do agree with this:
Quote :
There's a big difference between legitimate complaints and telling people they're wrong, their choices are garbage and offering no constructive discussion whatsoever though. There seems to have been a big increase in the number of replies I see like that.
There has been a big increase in this and not just here on TDC but on the web in general. Its poisoning the hobby.

Its lazy comments like "because they're trash" or "they suck" etc. If you can't find the time to at least explain your reasoning then why even post in someone elses topic other than to pad your post count? Whineseer is a good example of that and its infiltrated as far as here and dakka now too.

Forums used to advise members to consider the perspective of the OP when giving advice or posting a reply. Reply tailoring if you will. I feel its a good guideline and one I still try to do. It seems to work better than simply asserting MY feelings about a specific unit/topic/etc over the top of someone elses.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 22:19

@Brom wrote:
Its lazy comments like "because they're trash" or "they suck" etc. If you can't find the time to at least explain your reasoning then why even post in someone elses topic other than to pad your post count? Whineseer is a good example of that and its infiltrated as far as here and dakka now too.

That's true. Comments like that are very unhelpful.

However, I feel I should point out that the 'complainers' are far from being the only ones guilty of this. The positive posts can be just as worthless and uninformative in this regard.

"Nah, those units are great. Everyone else is whining because they're not as broken as [insert most broken unit here]."

"Don't listen to those whiners - wyches are amazing! I use a list that consists of foot-wytches, bloodbrides and hellions, and I'm undefeated in my FLGS. Decurion. Scatterbike Eldar. Imperial Knights. My list has tabled them all."

And then there's the old favourite "I use them and they work for me."


Just to reiterate - I'm not defending posts that dismiss units with no useful explanation. What I'm saying is that positive posts with no useful explanation are just as bad, and shouldn't get a free pass.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Fri Aug 21 2015, 23:22

Part of the problem is human nature, people often times excuse those that coincide with their view while attacking the same types of posts of the opposition when they should be condemning them on both sides. Voice your opinion but make it relevant and elaborate on your conclusion. Pointless one liners, whether they agree with one's own opinion or not should be condemned as useless and ignored.

I know I'm just repeating what others have pretty much already said but I felt like saying it in my own words anyway.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sat Aug 22 2015, 19:01

What? Why are you guys arguing about peoples opinions? I Dont care if you are "tired" of seeing it it, did you ever think they just need to vent out pint up frustrations and needed a person to talk to about it?

DE alone are missing things and alittle over costed, but that doesnt mean you cant win with them, I win about 50% the time and Im in a Highly competitive area (Every does play to win at my location, and thats my nature too I like it that way, but when you play to win you see the power level easily).


If I HAVE to win at any cost I play Tyranids (How sad is that right)? But I dont want to play Tyranids, I WANT to play DE, I still play them once a week even tho I know I will most likely lose, its b.c I love DE and it makes me Sad and Mad that Eldar/SM are almost unbeatable for me without Adding in Eldar.

Im Frustrated too, and just talking about it, seeing others have the same problems and SHOWING how they over came those problems is amazing and helps me play.

So Instead of Insulting each other, why not give examples and ideas to better the fight against certain armies, or just say "Hey, we understand, but dont worry, lets see if we can help make it better for you. What are you having trouble with the most?"

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 00:17

I will rage bout DE from time to time on forums like these, sometimes i'll even write GW a strongly worded email.

Even tho it achieves nothing I feel better afterwards and go back to finding ways to win with my beloved DE.

TIP: Gods bless maelstrom missions! I've lost count of the times I'm getting punished on the table but win comfortably on points. Love those reavers.
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iknowinewb
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 11:42

Wyches
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acolyte
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 13:24

You know wyches had a solid if short run as the cheapest anti armor unit in the game so it's not as if they didn't get some time in the sun. Did you refuse to use them to glance anything to death ? I didn't . Killed knights left and right with 100 point squads while I kited around with night shields that gave me effective 42" range. What I'm saying is dark eldar had their share of bs rules too.

I think wyches are not a top unit really just not right now. Until turn 4 when a 4+ invul and fnp makes them annoying as hell in combat. So how can we get to that point ? Working backwards we want them in their raiders on t3 and assaulting t4 something they can kill which is really just basic troops or to tarpit something so reavers can hammer of wrath train them. So that means we anticipate the wyches being our anti infantry. The rest of the list should be the anti armor. With wyches in reserve till they are useful. Oh and Pray to the drug gods for the good stuff.

Here's how I'm trying to win w a cult...list below

I dunno how often it will win...but the ravagers and small reaver squad should be able to spread out and pop some transports. The 12 reaver bomb with lances or blasters should mash something. And by t 4 something squishy will be available for the wyches. The enemy will have better things to shoot at. Substitute 4 small mandrake squads for a ravager for obj sitting and target confusion if you want more substandard units, hellions suck though I got nothin for them...reavers outclass them in every way. It's a wych cult heavy list with no venom spam that I think is viable as long as you stay spread and away till turn 3. I'm gonna give it a whirl. It's playing on a harder setting but I don't think it's impossible.i also hate incubi....just soooo dice dependent at str 3/4... Got offed by Ork boyz in combat my last try w them.

Thoughts?

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Succubus wwp archite glaive
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 13:49

@acolyte wrote:
You know wyches had a solid if short run as the cheapest anti armor unit in the game so it's not as if they didn't get some time in the sun.

So, how does this help exactly?

It's like telling a conquered nation "Well, you won some good victories in the past, so really you're overdue this humiliating defeat and years of subjugation at our hands." scratch
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Sun Aug 23 2015, 14:03

@The Shredder wrote:
@acolyte wrote:
You know wyches had a solid if short run as the cheapest anti armor unit in the game so it's not as if they didn't get some time in the sun.  

So, how does this help exactly?

It's like telling a conquered nation "Well, you won some good victories in the past, so really you're overdue this humiliating defeat and years of subjugation at our hands." scratch

I was about to make the same Comment lol.

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