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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 18:32

@The Shredder wrote:
Out of interest, Count, do you see Eldar using lances? I thought most used other (better) options.

I'm not saying they use them but they have at least as good access to them as we do, if not better.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 19:04

I had already been writing a long text but then I thought. Funk it. They just want to complain and aren't open to reason.

Cry me a river. Our codex sucks. We don't have any chance to win. I'm out of here. Just like my Kabal I'm leaving the dark city behind, living in the Web way and looting planets.

See you, suckers!

*launches spaceships
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 19:05

Bye.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 19:09

Farewell. Try not to let Reality's door hit you on your way out.


@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
Out of interest, Count, do you see Eldar using lances? I thought most used other (better) options.

I'm not saying they use them but they have at least as good access to them as we do, if not better.

Oh, indeed. I was just curious as to whether your local Eldar players actually used their bright lances. Razz

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 19:11

Quote :
Do I believe that pure DE are tier 1? No prob tier 2, but I could see a meta shift where DE/E (DE primary) is the number one faction in the game, if the right players get behind them.

The only reason why DE/E is the number one faction in the game is because Archons can WWP Wraithguard and Venoms can transport Fire dragons. That is basically why you pick RSR in a competitive setting. Taxi service for superior eldar units.
Quote :

Out of interest, Count, do you see Eldar using lances? I thought most used other (better) options.

And now think about the implication that even CWE who have better lances than us leave them at home for better weapons.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 20:26

So, when I was referring to DE/E with DE as primary that would mean a DE army with Eldar as Allies and not the other waay around.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 21:40

I'm putting out a list of DE/E advantages/disadvantages. Pls forgive the long post.

Eldar anti-infantry/light armour lives in the Troop section: Jetbikes, along with weapon platform-Guardians, with primarily Jetbikes being used for this role. Our Anti-tank lives in the FA section which can become a second Troop section via RSR, along with more anti-infantry options. Our troop section is primarily anti-infantry through Venoms, with some anti-armour options, though not many. But Eldar rarely employ anti-tank in the Troop section either. That's cause Eldar use Jetbikes to glance av12 to death and rely on D, Dragons and Hawks to take out the bigger things. We have more dedicated anti-tank in the FA section, which is easier to deploy (scourge, reavers etc), and ours is bigger through RSR.

All things being equal Eldar have access to about the same number of lances, maybe a little more and twin-linked, but on more expensive platforms. This limits the saturation of these weapons throughout their army, especially if they are trying to make room for other things (D, psykers, Aspects). DE have Ravagers and cheap lance platforms in Raiders/Gunboats, we also have a special lance weapon in the Blaster, which is cheaper than the standard lance and more widely available. The lance point is important and cause lances are the equalizer for D/Eldar against AV14, which is rare, and AV13 which is more common; against these targets its basically a lascannon (or better vs AV14). The tax that Eldar of both types get for using Lances is that they are slightly more expensive than a Lascannon as they are better against AV14, but worse against more common weaker targets. The Eldar get over this by having access to the Scattpack, which kills AV12, though less well than you might think. DE get over it by having access to Grotesques, which wreck light vehicles and can catch them from a WWP.

Eldar also have a specific unit which kills both heavy and light vehicles en masse: D-Scythes. The reg D weapons are less good against light tanks, as 50/50 they will either destroy them outright or do limited damage. Fire Dragons and Swooping Hawks can do this role too, but you pay for the privilege of guaranteeing a dead tank/titan. You need a delivery system for these units and once they drop it is unlikely that they will survive the retaliation either through assault or shooting. A smart opponent will easily limit the number of units a 'drop' can eliminate to one. DE can do similar things with DS scourges, reavers and such but do not pay the delivery tax and will mostly be in a better position to escape retaliation. You use three units to do the job of one, sure, but they will be in a better position at the end of the turn, cause your opponent is trying to catch three units instead of one big one that costs the same.
               
In summary DE can have a better saturation of anti-tank across the army, rather than focused in one or two units, don't have to pay an ally tax (WWP) to use them, and retain the ability to kill infantry through posion. We are not handicapped by having to use one expensive platform (Jetbikes) to kill two types of enemy and relying on another expensive one (D, Fire Dragons, Hawks) to kill another specific type.
 
So... on balance Eldar get cool stuff like D, Aspect Warriors and Psykers, but tend to be specialized and point-bloated as a result. We get stuff that is less effective against one type of enemy, but more multi-functional. It is apparent to me that, with the nerf to the Wave Serpent and Laser-Lock Eldar actually lost firepower since their last book and gained the ability to kill one specific type of unit through D. But even with the boost to scatter Jetbikes and D, they did not get enough of a shooting boost to make up for the loss of firepower saturation that the Serpent gave them before. That is, unless you count the Scattpacks ability to escape being assaulted for the whole game through thrust moves.

Peace out.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 21:44

@Sulmo wrote:
So, when I was referring to DE/E with DE as primary that would mean a DE army with Eldar as Allies and not the other waay around.

Yes. It is.
It is RSR with an Archon for WWP and multiple Venoms/Raiders as fast attack. Main Detachment.
And then you have Aspect Host Formations to sit in the venoms and an allied detachment with an autarch for resverve manipulation and Wraithguard.

So, yes. RSR is the main detachment.
No, it is no DE/E list as most points do still come from the Eldar while our army just provides the taxi service.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 21:56

So yes I was refering to a DE/E list with more points invested in DE.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 22:53

Which is not happening.
DE get abused for their transport. Everything that an be put into these transport is strictly better when picked from the CWE codex.
Want Blaserborn? BS5 Firedragons are cheaper and better.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 23:05

That's one of the things that always makes me raise my eyebrows when people talk about using Eldar allies. I mean, where do you stop? It seems like you'd end up either taking more and more Eldar units (because, you know, they're outright better than ours), or else you limit yourself to mostly DE units for fluff reasons... which seems a bit weird if you're already taking allies for power reasons.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 23:12

Most of that argument doesn't apply to Haemonculus Covens, does it? CWE have nothing analogous to the Corpsethief, Scalpel Squadron, Dark Artisan, or grotesques in general, do they?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 23:23

I dunno about that tho. Grots may not be directly ported to cwe, but if you want flamers you can take fire dragons, and if you want resilient cc bodies take wraithblades.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 23:23

I don't agree about that. If they are BS 5 they are part of an Aspect Host Formation. So you bought three(?) units of them. They now need to get within 6" of an AV13/14 vehicle to get their points back. If your shooting at infantry or light vehicles with them from further away you wasted those shots, unless the Venom is contributing splinter fire, in which case you wasted it's 36" inch range and the fact that they and their Venom will be assaulted and shot next turn. With Battle Focus you could move the Venom, disembark run and then shoot, then boost the Venom out of harms way, but the Dragons will not survive.

With Blasterborn I only need to get within 18" to hurt something with armour, which means a lower probability of counter assault and I get to keep the Venom and the Trueborn. It also limits return fire from further afield, keeping me out of melta and rapid fire range of the things behind my initial target. So Dragons are more than twice as effective than Trueborn at blowing up tanks. So what, if my Trueborn get to shoot twice as many times as they do while my opponent is also worrying about the Haywire Scourges that will also be too far away for him to assault and shoot next turn and which I can move further away, it doesnt really matter.

Furthermore the best units for the Aspect Shrine are IMO Spiders and Hawks: built in delivery system. That is, unless you want to spend half the points in your army on non Scatter DS Falcons with the (>300 point) Host.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 23:54

So take a unit of Hawks, a unit of Spiders and a unit of Dragons, all at BS5 with no tax and with a bundle of nice added benefits, like +1 on the damage table, flickerjump, reroll morale tests etc. There's no requirement for the units to all be from the same aspect! Oh, and you can throw in BS5 Wave Serpents too, for added gravy...

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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Wed Aug 19 2015, 23:57

Yup that's a good formation.
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Thu Aug 20 2015, 00:01

Harliquens as you've mentioned seem to fill the gaps in the coven army. Though they seem expensive points wise and fragile. @Jimsolo
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Thu Aug 20 2015, 00:30

@Count Adhemar wrote:
So take a unit of Hawks, a unit of Spiders and a unit of Dragons, all at BS5 with no tax and with a bundle of nice added benefits, like +1 on the damage table, flickerjump, reroll morale tests etc. There's no requirement for the units to all be from the same aspect! Oh, and you can throw in BS5 Wave Serpents too, for added gravy...

Why not Hawks, Reapers, and Dragons? DE transports will serve the latter two better than Wave Serpents.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Thu Aug 20 2015, 06:57

What he says is "you can buy the formation, put them in Venoms and still have empty serpents around"
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Thu Aug 20 2015, 08:28

@Jimsolo wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
So take a unit of Hawks, a unit of Spiders and a unit of Dragons, all at BS5 with no tax and with a bundle of nice added benefits, like +1 on the damage table, flickerjump, reroll morale tests etc. There's no requirement for the units to all be from the same aspect! Oh, and you can throw in BS5 Wave Serpents too, for added gravy...

Why not Hawks, Reapers, and Dragons?  DE transports will serve the latter two better than Wave Serpents.

Personally I take Dragons, Reapers and Spiders and yes, I do put them in Raiders or Venoms (where applicable) but there's still the opportunity to take a BS5, decently armoured, fast skimmer with excellent weaponry should I feel the need to do so.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Thu Aug 20 2015, 10:10

@Jimsolo wrote:
Most of that argument doesn't apply to Haemonculus Covens, does it?  CWE have nothing analogous to the Corpsethief, Scalpel Squadron, Dark Artisan, or grotesques in general, do they?

Depends what you mean, I guess.

I mean, with regard to Corpsethief and DA, Eldar have the best MC in the game - boasting gargantuan status, T8 with FNP, S10 melee attacks, stomp, 2 D-weapons and options for 2 scatter lasers (which can all shoot different targets), and a 12" move. And, it costs considerably less than either DA or CTC.

So, it'll probably come down to the fine details. Do you want as a durable fire-magnet? If so, you might as well just take a WK - which is more durable, faster, cheaper and it's offence is orders of magnitude better. But, if you want a warlord-bunker, you'll need the DA (though, if you're already set on taking eldar allies, you'll have better choices for warlords anyway...).

With CTC, are you after incredible durability? If so, then it's better than the WK. But, if you don't mind trading off some durability (and, you know, getting an extra ~300pts to spend elsewere), then the WK is vastly superior.

With Scalpel Squadron, Eldar (AFAIK) don't have any turn 1 deep-strikers, so there's that. But, in terms of actual firepower, they have better.

Really, it comes down to niche appeal. A WK can't be used to bunker a character, and can't match the durability of a CTC (though it costs half as much as the latter). But, it outclasses them in just about every other way.
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Thu Aug 20 2015, 11:21

WK has one big disadvantage: Gargantuan Creature.

It is banned or restricted in many tournamnents. Not so in open pick up games. But this effects our Meta alot.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Thu Aug 20 2015, 11:24

Ah, that's interesting. I know some tournaments nerfed D-weapons too.

Out of interest, are super heavies banned/restricted in tournaments as well?
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Thu Aug 20 2015, 11:27

@The Shredder wrote:
Ah, that's interesting. I know some tournaments nerfed D-weapons too.

Out of interest, are super heavies banned/restricted in tournaments as well?

Most of the time yes. They are either both allowed or disallowed. One tournament allows knights as only SH.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Complaints   Thu Aug 20 2015, 11:41

@The Shredder wrote:
I mean, with regard to Corpsethief and DA, Eldar have the best MC in the game - boasting gargantuan status, T8 with FNP, S10 melee attacks, stomp, 2 D-weapons and options for 2 scatter lasers (which can all shoot different targets), and a 12" move. And, it costs considerably less than either DA or CTC.

Just a quick note - its a considerable grey area about it firing more than 2 weapons...

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