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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 01:10

You know what this is about. We have a codex that only came out six months ago and already it feels a decade old compared to the more recent ones. 'It's not a bad codex,' they say. Well, that depends on what you expect from it, doesn't it? I expect the same thing that space meringues and craftworld eldar get: a game supplement that lets me play with my models against other people playing with theirs and have a fair and fun game with them. By that standard it is not only a bad codex, it is a terrible one. More than half of it might as well not exist.

Other people don't even want to play with me any more, because beating up on my dark eldar is no more fun for them than it is for me. They're awfully embarrassed about it, but I understand. You work hard all week and finally have a few hours to go to the store and play -- no one wants to have that time wasted. Better to bring out the Settlers of Catan, or something, than play against Dark Eldar.

So I've been keeping an eye on all the suggestions on how to deal with it. 'Ally with Craftworld Eldar,' for example. The problem with that is that I don't want to: If I wanted to collect Craftworld Eldar, I would have. Being told that you have to bring CE if you want to play with your DE is like going into a restaurant and being told that you can't order the ice cream cake unless you also order the turnip and garlic stew, and eat it. Hey, paying customer here, right? Why should I have to spend money and weeks of my time on models I don't particularly like, just to play with the models I do like?

So, okay, playing 'pure' Dark Eldar is more difficult, but not impossible. 'The tools are there in the codex,' they say. What tools? Warriors, scourges, razorwings, haemonculus formations, ravagers, reavers -- fine, let's make a list.

Well, I've been collecting my current army for five years now, so you would think I should be able to make a playable list with what I have. I'm not thrilled that most of it turns out to be unplayable, but okay. What do I need?

About 20 warriors, plus 4 venoms for them, 5 or 10 scourges, 3 or 4 more grotesques and a raider for them, 2 more taloses, maybe another ravager, 1 or 2 razorwings, another 6 reavers, 5 more wracks and another venom for them, and... Stop. Please stop right there.

Are. You. Kidding. Me? Never mind how much that is going to cost -- ouchie, but hobbies cost money. But when exactly am I going to find the time to paint all of this stuff? By the time I'm finished there will be another edition of 40K that makes it all rubbish, or a new codex that nerfs wyches again, because someone up there in Nottingham really, really hates them. Anyway it doesn't help me now or in the near future.

'Just hang in there, more stuff is going to come out for DE soon and it will make it aaall better. Maybe a campaign, or a wyches supplement (ha!), or well, something. So hang in there.' Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I still love the Dark Eldar and I'm still collecting models. Maybe the magical wish supplement will happen and playing the game will be an option again, who knows?

But... does anyone remember Sorrowshard? He was a guy who really loved Dark Eldar and had one of the loveliest armies you've seen. In 2012 he gave up, sold his DE, and went away mad. I remember posting a comment on his blog: 'Don't do it! It will get better, you'll see.' Well it's been 3 years now, and has anything gotten better? No, it just gets a little bit worse and worse. I was wrong (it happens!). It's funny looking back on what was considered bad enough to quit back then, because we wish we were back at that level now!

So yeah, I give up on 40K. I'm just going to play Settlers of Catan now. Smile
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 01:24

Sorry to lose you.

Interested in selling off part/all of your army?
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 01:34

Spam content removed. In the future, please either contribute to the thread or do not bother posting in it. - Baron T
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 01:52

You obviously have not been a WHFB player. The financial investment for 40k is small in comparison.

As far as having to paint your models, i'm sure that your club mates wouldn't mind playing against a few primer only models while you're building some new models, especially if they're getting upset by your assumingly underpowered collection of models.

While it's true that DE don't have the shiny new toys in our codex that the eldar , space marines and necrons do, I can still pull out a win with my deliberately sub-par lists (i say sub-par because I like to use 5 Sslyth + medusae, incubi, combat archon, hellions and wyches).

Let me get back to you after my tournament next month how I feel about the competitive scene (i'm taking the sub-par list as pure DE)
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 01:55

Its baaaad, lists come down to allying in CWE, or spam lance/venoms, doesnt feel like fun to me so i tend to field just models i like and get stomped for it.

Anyways hope you wont sell of all your stuff and "hang in there" with them (until?) something arrives for us Smile
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 02:57

Nooooooooo your models are too beautiful to lose to the game! Sad

I seriously understand where you're coming from though. My own response to the "yeah you spent years painting the wrong things, maybe another couple of years and you'll have collected enough of the ok stuff to get by" has been to take a break from DE... I've been painting Necrons. Easy to paint, easy to play. So on a given game night I will have a choice on whether I want to play on gruelling mode with my favourite but sucky models, or have a decent game on a more moderate difficulty curve. One that doesn't leave me with a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach every time a gun is pointed at them, or a slow sinking feeling when their charge hits with all the force of a limp lettuce leaf.

Still, to each their own. Enjoy your Settlers! Hopefully there will be a better day for wyches and dark eldar in general one day.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 03:24

@Jimsolo wrote:
Sorry to lose you.

Interested in selling off part/all of your army?

Ha! No Smile

As I said, I still love them and I plan to continue to collect them.

@nexs wrote:
You obviously have not been a WHFB player. The financial investment for 40k is small in comparison.

As far as having to paint your models, i'm sure that your club mates wouldn't mind playing against a few primer only models while you're building some new models, especially if they're getting upset by your assumingly underpowered collection of models.

They might not mind, but I would. That would be horrible.

I do play Warhammer, and my Dark Elves kick arse. Look: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t9286-my-dark-elves

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Nooooooooo your models are too beautiful to lose to the game! Sad

Well thank you Smile
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 04:38

wyches and some other units are pretty much unplayable. DE are not. Have you ever considered getting a group together that is willing to tone it down? I have no problem using allies when we want to step it up but my closest gaming friends enjoy playing pure armies and different levels where dark eldar shine. Field balanced armies especially nids, orks, non decurion crons non gladius "meringues" lol blood angels, wolves etc and games are much more fun IMO. My buddies bring unplayable units too like tyranid primes and Gabriel Seth, things with great fluff that get pushed out by a few OP'd units and super heavies. Eliminate these and everyone's options increase. Just a thought.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 05:13

I want to ask what kind of armies... Or players you face? Cheesy ones that take a pure knight list or mister super spam? If that's the case, I would give up too. Not because I'd be loosing but because those people aren't fun to play. Glad to have real friends that play it and that I don't need pick up games at stores.

But don't sell them! The money you get isn't worth losing the models. Maybe there is a better balanced codex in 10 years ;D

edit Too clumsy to use edit in a phone:
But you know what I'd do? I'd take a sabbath year and buy some Falcons and serpents and stuff. Convert them to make the look dark Eldar and play pure Craftworld Eldar. frak them if they can bring cheese, so can you!

Double post merged - Baron T
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 07:14

@CptMetal wrote:
I want to ask what kind of armies... Or players you face?
@Brom wrote:
Have you ever considered getting a group together that is willing to tone it down?

The thing is, why should they? They're having fun, their armies aren't cheesy... when played against each other. Why should they have to give up their toys?

One of my friends plays Sillymander space meringues. He used to win a few but lose more, because he likes to play them as sillymanders even though they might be better as ultrameringues, or whatever. A few months ago I could still beat him, now it's impossible, but he's winning a lot against Eldar and Necrons and so on and having the time of his life. Shall I ask him to tone it down? That wouldn't be fair. He didn't create this situation.

Another friend likes Wraithknights, which I can't hurt at all. He used to suffer because Wraithknights were a lot of points and easily killed, now he can face up to Lords of Skulls and Imperial Knights on an equal level. Why shouldn't he enjoy it? It's not his fault that I have nothing that can hurt a Wraithknight.

@CptMetal wrote:
But don't sell them!

I'm not! Why does everyone think I'm selling anything?

@CptMetal wrote:
... buy some Falcons and serpents and stuff. Convert them to make the look dark Eldar and play pure Craftworld Eldar

Craftworld Eldar just don't appeal to me. I don't want to spend my days painting up models that don't excite me. I'd rather paint more dark eldar and just not play with them.
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 07:26

Sounds like you're in a group of powergamers. Powergamers are fine when grouped with other powergamers, but when grouped with decent human beings they stick out like a sore thumb.
They're a breed that should be left to their devices and fed with games occasionally.

I'm also in the boat of "CWE don't really appeal". I like pure DE and I like the units that are considered weak or useless. I'm lucky to have a group that I game with that don't like to bring the auto-win units. If I turned up to play against someone and they brought multiple wraithknights and a core full of scatter laser jetbikes, i'd not even unpack my army.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 07:42

I think you should use dark Eldar models. But count them as Craftworld Eldar. Why shouldn't you? Ask your friends, they will surely understand.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 09:51

Quote :
I like pure DE and I like the units that are considered weak or useless. I'm lucky to have a group that I game with that don't like to bring the auto-win units. If I turned up to play against someone and they brought multiple wraithknights and a core full of scatter laser jetbikes, i'd not even unpack my army.


You don't need to pick power lists against DE. Im at a point where I can randomize my army, give you 400 points advantage and my Eldar will still win against pure DE.
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 10:15

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
I like pure DE and I like the units that are considered weak or useless. I'm lucky to have a group that I game with that don't like to bring the auto-win units. If I turned up to play against someone and they brought multiple wraithknights and a core full of scatter laser jetbikes, i'd not even unpack my army.


You don't need to pick power lists against DE. Im at a point where I can randomize my army, give you 400 points advantage and my Eldar will still win against pure DE.

Challenge accepted lol!

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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 10:17

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
I like pure DE and I like the units that are considered weak or useless. I'm lucky to have a group that I game with that don't like to bring the auto-win units. If I turned up to play against someone and they brought multiple wraithknights and a core full of scatter laser jetbikes, i'd not even unpack my army.


You don't need to pick power lists against DE. Im at a point where I can randomize my army, give you 400 points advantage and my Eldar will still win against pure DE.
That's because eldar got everything for cheap. But I think your example is a bit over the top., I'm sure DE could pull out a win given the circumstances you'd just offered with little trouble
400 points is juat short of 4x 5 kabalites in an upgraded venom.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 10:35

Ands that's a testament to what went wrong with that book. Everyone knows it even those of us that play it. That said DE are fully capable of tailoring and crushing eldar, but doing that type of thing all the time is boring.

Agatha- you should ask them because it's still fun, maybe more fun to diversify and try new things instead of what obviously just wins. But mostly because every member of a gaming group is valuable. Maintaining a healthy gaming environment takes concerted effort. Feeling forced to conform to a few units from a few select armies because the power level is skewed gets old quick. That's why we collectively make decisions for what's good for our group because gw puts that on us and it doesn't work otherwise.

The web is a great medium for this hobby but it's largely ruined it in many ways with people thinking this is professional competition or a career or something. Yet you rarely meet a player who enjoys the game more than when they first started playing. There's a reason for that. At some point we finally recognized this and work to keep that alive. Skill level doesn't change though, just the tools we choose to use.

Anyway good luck hope something changes for you because it ain't for DE. Unfortunately it is what it is.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 11:58

I'm sure my various posts here have left no illusions with regard to how I feel about our current book.

I think you're well within your rights to abandon 40k. It's a game - and an incredibly expensive one at that - so if it's not fun then there's really no point continuing. Same goes for playing Dark Eldar - if you're not having fun playing with them because of their atrocious codex, then there doesn't seem much point in carrying on.

Personally, I think the worst part isn't their power level - it's the fact that they're boring. Do we have any interesting rules? Any fun weapons? Any evil tricks? None come to mind. But don't worry - at least our PfP table has all the excitement of watching an Archon meticulously filling out his tax returns.  Rolling Eyes

I live in hope that someone will eventually find a cure for the Stupid Epidemic that all GW designers have been suffering from for the last decade or so.

@Brom wrote:

Agatha- you should ask them because it's still fun, maybe more fun to diversify and try new things instead of what obviously just wins.

I can't speak for the OP, but for me this would actually make things even worse in my mind. It would be the equivalent of someone letting me win.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 12:01

Actually, we have dirty tricks. Poison weaponry and Phantasm weapons.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 12:03

@CptMetal wrote:
Actually, we have dirty tricks. Poison weaponry and Phantasm weapons.

I find it hard to classify poison as a 'dirty trick'. Maybe back in 5th, but in the age of Grav, D-weapons, super-heavies and Gargantuan Creatures? No. Not even close.

Also, what are phantasm weapons?

EDIT: Oh, nevermind - I assume you mean Soulfright weapons. In which case... what? Those are what you consider dirty tricks?

Those weapons that are utterly worthless against any SM army? Or against any army with Fearless? Those weapons that require you to sacrifice one of the biggest advantages of the shooting phase (sequential targeting), in the vain hope that they might accomplish something after it's too late to compensate if they done't? Those weapons that have no ability to stack and, on average, don't even cause a single wound to a guardsman squad with no sergeant? Oh, bur if we have an overpriced Archon with his special relic armour within 6" of that squad, we might be able to up that to a whole 2 wounds to that guardsman squad! Or 1 if they have a sergeant.

This is the weapon that you consider our 'dirty trick'?

The only dirty trick here is the one played on us by the design team who wrote this garbage.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 12:46

Have you read the freakshow tactics by Jim? Agreed, it's a shame that they don't work against space Marines, but against most other enemies it's fine. Sure I've got no problem integrating Dark Eldar look alike Eldar Farseer or harlequins because after reading the books I consider them the same army. Without them that doesn't work against Marines.

And poison? Well... Every single weapon is a poison weapon. That is damn huge! That's negating one mayor advantage of many armies, like bike armies or Nurgle guys. We can even still hurt a gargantuan creature. Sure. Only at 6, but better than a Bolter.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 12:50

@CptMetal wrote:
Have you read the freakshow tactics by Jim? Agreed, it's a shame that they don't work against space Marines, but against most other enemies it's fine. Sure I've got no problem integrating Dark Eldar look alike Eldar Farseer or harlequins because after reading the books I consider them the same army. Without them that doesn't work against Marines.

So, once again, we're back to using allies because our own rules are a bucket of manure. Sorry if that doesn't sell me on Dark Eldar.

@CptMetal wrote:
And poison? Well... Every single weapon is a poison weapon. That is damn huge! That's negating one mayor advantage of many armies, like bike armies or Nurgle guys. We can even still hurt a gargantuan creature. Sure. Only at 6, but better than a Bolter.

The difference is that marines aren't relying on their bolters to hurt gargantuan creatures. They have other, vastly-superior weapons for that.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 12:54

@The Shredder wrote:

The only dirty trick here is the one played on us by the design team who wrote this garbage.

I could not agree more with this sentiment. Kudos sir.

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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 13:18

I've dropped with WH40k few years ago (like Cool, after 3 years playing DE. Nowadays, a new small group of friends invited me to join over with my fairly 80's look army, and im into it again. But the feeling that made me drop the hobby persist, also with new books and rules. I dont do that because today my game invironment is very much more ... casual.

The major issue of DE is that they are not....wide. With a normal army of spehss muffins you have the capacity to test and try dozen of different tactis. One day you wanna go mech? Go mech. Bike gang? Sure. Hero-focused? Go on. Drop-pod focused? Go on again. Let's use something that fly. Ok. Use a very psy-centred army. Ok.
In my gaming habitat (vere proxy are widely accepted) it's a fantastic thing.

DE have only 3-4 major tactics and they are not so different. And, above all, they are not so SUCCESFULL. Because all tactics that i've listed before are available in only one flavour: easy&powerful.
I like the jimsolo freighting tactics, but i see it as a attempt to make viable a secoundary and not so powerful shenigan.

Sorry for my english, but, you know, i'm italian.
However, as 1d4 chan teached me....that's WH40K on hardcore mode.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 14:10

@RCZ wrote:

The major issue of DE is that they are not....wide. With a normal army of spehss muffins you have the capacity to test and try dozen of different tactis. One day you wanna go mech? Go mech. Bike gang? Sure. Hero-focused? Go on. Drop-pod focused? Go on again. Let's use something that fly. Ok. Use a very psy-centred army. Ok.
In my gaming habitat (vere proxy are widely accepted) it's a fantastic thing.

DE have only 3-4 major tactics and they are not so different. And, above all, they are not so SUCCESFULL. Because all tactics that i've listed before are available in only one flavour: easy&powerful.

That's a good point. It's a shame, because DE could easily be given the tools to make more diverse armies. e.g.:
- Let non-HQ units take WWPs, and possibly drop their cost to ~25pts (so that we can make a drop-pod equivalent army, without paying a ludicrous HQ tax.)
- Let HQ's take bikes, wings and skyboards, make Hellions troops (and give them a purpose), and buff beasts a bit (this would let us run a fast army without needing transports for everything, as well as giving us far more transport-independent options in general)
- Make our HQs worth a damn, and bring back options for cheap (and useful) ones. HQ spam might not be the best use of points, but it certainly shouldn't amount to just throwing those points into a ravine. Furthermore, if we're going to have a ton of squads with 'minimum-5' and 1-per-5 or 1-per-10 special weapons, could we perhaps have 11 capacity on the raider, and/or the 6 capacity on venom?
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Why I give up   Tue Aug 18 2015, 14:16

I feel you man. I'm not having much fun with vanilla 40K at the moment. What I do enjoy however, is kill team, zone mortalis, maybe a little appocalypse and the pitched battles from the various campaign books. Dark eldar are pretty good in those rulesets. Not the best solution to the problem, but at least I get to play with my dolls.
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