HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Losing hope please help

Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Carcearion
Slave
avatar

Posts : 21
Join date : 2015-07-15
Location : Oregon

PostSubject: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 04:55

So I have come to this board seeking some help and advice for my new DE army. Right now on the verge of giving on on the Dark Eldar entirely, I have had my eye on them for over five years and I've always considered my self a fan (without a doubt tied for first place as my favorite faction in Warhammer 40k).

However I have played ten abysmal games with them so far and I am, winning only twice in close games, and being crushed (and in many cases completely tabled) in the other eight. Frankly he has even been going easy on me, not using his orders some turns, and generally just playing around with his army list instead of using a very serious one.... I even lost a game to a randomly generated army list.

I have a limited collection so far but i am finding that many of the tactics and flavor i really thought would be fun with the Dark Eldar are simply no longer there, or do not work.

Ramming raiders do not seem to function well, the 10pt upgrade per vehicle often lands me 0~1 glances per game and enemy commissars or lord commissars render tank shocking all but useless even with a -2 leadership radiating Archon in a raider.

The humonculous does not have the access the allot of the most interesting weapons and wargear such as the ossifactor which are exclusive for his wracks (which frankly i am not very fond of, they just look a little too chaosy and im going for an overall kabalite feel for the army).

I find the Eldar jetbikes, which i have tried in many different combinations, despite being my favorite unit have not fared particularly well, rarely making it to close combat or hitting with their heat-lance. (I must admit that i was using them wrongly thinking they only had a jink if they turbo-boosted, and not knowing that skilled rider made their jink save better- however the prescience of an abundance of heavy flamers and ignores cover orders has left me feeling even this massive boost will not help them).

The razorwings limited missile arsenal and weapons load out (combined with the disparaging useless supersonic special rule) make the flier seem very wanting (especially compared to the valkery).

At the moment several of my friends are taking a break from Warhammer so I'm almost exclusively playing against a experienced imperial guard player, whom i normally fair well against with my other armies (Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons).

My collection includes:

9 jet bikes (and 16 more models I use for additional proxies)

2 raiders

2 ravagers

1 voidraven

2 venoms

30 kabalite warriors


Proxing infantry models is not a problem in my gaming environment but the DE have very unique hull structures so proxing addition vehicles is unfortunately not an option for me as i have no Eldar players as part of my gaming circle.

What I'm generally looking for here is the hope that some general advice about using the Dark Eldar strategically can be imparted to me, specifically anyone has any advice dealing armies with superior shooting, ignores cover, and powerful over watch (such as Tau and Guard). I am not looking for an army list. Also id like to know if it is an absolute necessity that i field a ton of blasterborn in bunch of venoms... because frankly the more i play, and more i read the more i'm starting to feel this is really the only viable option.

Thank you guys so much for the useful advice and support iv gotten since I started my army, hoping for some encouraging words and useful advice.
Back to top Go down
Nariaklizhar
Sybarite


Posts : 368
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : California

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 05:39

Dark Eldar are a tough army to play. I would say half the units GW has given us do not have a functional, competative purpose. The remaining half are actually pretty decent, with proper use. I will be the first to say that I have lost many a game. I have learned which units perform, and which leave me wanting.

Gaurd are a very deep and capable army. That ignore cover can be tough to counter. Don't be discouraged though, we actually have units that can fight back. First thing that comes to mind are coven formations. If you are willing to try out some of these formations, you would be rewarded.

I will say don't expect Dark Eldar to just go out and win games. We are are way too fragile for that. Every move you make makes a big pact for an army like dark eldar. I find that in EVERY game I play, there is a specific moment that determines the game. I usually find out right then if I'm going to win or lose. (I still play out the rest of the game of course) The point being, our mistakes are significantly magnefied due to our fragility.
Back to top Go down
nexs
Wych
avatar

Posts : 766
Join date : 2014-12-28

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 05:53

I am not the greatest tactician here by far, but I can give you my observations. Alternatively, there's a few articles and threads around the forum with some good insight.

I am interested in the fluff, myself, and try to play somewhat fluffy. I Like my Archon to do the heavy lifting despite his fragility, I like my Sslyth to accompany my Archon into combat, so their carbines are rarely used (if at all).

If you like the kabal and archon theme, there's generally states of mind: combat warlord, but will likely die; or shooty warlord and will likely die.

You have 2 ravagers (assumingly with dark lances) and a bomber, so anti tank isn't a problem. This means you can use raiders(with disintergrators, and occupant kabalites with splinter racks) and venoms to take out foot sloggers.
Jetbikes tend to soak up alot of firepower because they can jink at 3+ (or 2+ with night fighting) which means they'll be the target of most Ignores Cover. So make sure your alpha strike hits hard. Also the cluster caltrops make for great odds at wrecking vehicles with HoW.

Also I love the razorwing jetfighter. I always upgrade with fleshbane missiles, dark lances and splinter cannon - he usually comes on and dumps all 4 blasts, jinks some shots off then flies off the board to come back in for anti tank shooting.

That's just my 2c, hopefully you can have some better luck mate!
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3064
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 05:54

If Dark Eldar are 40k on hard mode, then Dark Eldar vs IG is Dark Eldar on hard mode. So don't feel bad if you're not pulling out big wins. I crush face with Dark Eldar, and even I struggle against even mediocre Guard lists.

First off, drop the rams. They're a pointless (get it? get it?) waste of resources. If you want vehicle penetrating capacity on your Raiders and/or your Ravagers, Dark Lances are half the cost and available at a much greater range.

You've got a pretty solid model collection, actually, so that's a plus. No worthless units.

Do you run your bikes with Caltrops? If not, you should. And as a personal opinion, nothing else. Put them in squads of either 6 or 9. (3, if you must.)

If you're going to pick up additional units, then some Scourges would not go amiss (haywire or heat lance flavors are both acceptable). I'll not lie, a big fat unit of Grotesques and either a character with a webway portal, or a raider to carry them around in, would also be a welcome addition to your force (as well as a strong enough hammer to turn most any problem into a nail).

What kind of Guard lists do you usually face? (Also, are you open to the idea of allying with Eldar?)
Back to top Go down
nexs
Wych
avatar

Posts : 766
Join date : 2014-12-28

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 05:55

@Jimsolo wrote:

First off, drop the rams.  They're a pointless (get it? get it?)
Day = made!
Back to top Go down
CptMetal
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2922
Join date : 2015-03-03
Location : Ruhr Metropolian Area

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 06:45

I had a great day with a deep striking unit with Web way portal and Armour of Misery on a Raider to take out the guards command structure. Then he wasn't able to do half of the commands anymore.


Grotesques is a great tip. Use two in Raider with Haemonculus as a grotesquerie formation. They are soaking so much fire that the rest is relatively unharmed. And if the rest is harmed, they can run amok! At least that's my experience. But don't buy the official Grotesque model! Way too expensive!
Back to top Go down
Carcearion
Slave
avatar

Posts : 21
Join date : 2015-07-15
Location : Oregon

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 07:35

Most often than not the bulk of his army is Veterans in Chimeras (and Valkeries) with Melta or plasma loadout with light artillery and auto-cannon support. With out exception he places his entire army in one general half of the board to support each other. He's also on the verge of beginning to field heavy flamers on all of these units as well, which will be the end of my ability to assault his veterans or their transports with cluster caltrops or move in close on him in anyway (since all my vehicles and infantry even the ones inside my transports can be taken down by heavy flamer shots).

I have already been loosing so handedly, after I discovered my mistake with the cover save and became exited that not only did I always have a jink save - but that it was a damn good one thanks to expert rider, this got my hopes up thinking my bikers might be able to survive to do some damage (since I field so many in my list this felt like what I was missing for my army to perform). shortly after figuring this out he talked about his new flamer load out and that really felt like the end of my ability to win with my army.

What really feels frustrating is that I don't even seem to have an option to play a lightning strike (fast in your face) type army like i had always imagined the Dark Eldar to be... I see all these great looking fluffy tools like the ram, the bladevines, the cluster-caltrops... but I get torn to pieces trying to close in, they seem to be generally unthreatend by tank shocking, ramming, the terror grenades (I gave those up rather quickly when they didn't even function on the Imperial Guard), and even just plain assaults from Dark Eldar units. I feel like the Dark Eldar just aren't good at what they should be good at.

Despite all the doom and gloom I spouted in this post I am actually starting to feel allot better about my odds. All of you have definatly already given me allot of good input on figuring this out! My favorite units the Raiders and Reavers have either performed quite well (Raiders) or posed such a threat it was gratifying to see my enemy be forced to spend so much attention on them (Reavers), I think that all the loses have simply ground me down.

@Jimsolo

I have been running the cluster-caltrops since match one, I have never stopped using them. Reavers should kick ass and take names when they assualt something with there blade covered death bikes and this seemed like the way for them to do that. I run either a bunch of 3 man squads (with two deployments) or five or so 5 man biker squads. Unfortunately I have found that I don't often get a rending hit with them, and the bigger problem my bikers don't often survive for then to make it to melee but once again I was'nt using my 4+/3+ jink save so who knows how I would have done... but now with all the heavy flamers on the horizon their ability to assault and use them seems even less likely.

Have you had success with larger biker squads? I only have 25 models (16 of which are proxies) and right now my five 5 man squads already seem like allot of models. Do you suggest running fewer squads in even larger numbers for surviability?

Have you successfully run these larger squads against enemies with ignores cover fire, and/or have really strong over-watch?

As to allies I understand this is terribly limiting but my main focus was really to try and do a pure Dark Eldar Kabalite force, I like the humonkuli but frankly the grotesques and talos seem a little too close (in looks and stat line) to what iv already been doing with the monsters I've been running in my chaos daemons and chaos marines armies for years. I came to Dark Eldar because I wanted a totally different experiences (Lol I have defiantly gotten that!).

@CptMetal @ Jimsolo

I'll definatly give the Grotesques another look over and maybe see if i can think of a way to model them in a way I feel is a little more in line with the style I'm going for (maybe ill take a peak at some Warhammer fantasy dark elves or vampire counts models and consider what could be done with some tubes and needles). I have always really liked the humonkuli but the grotesques just remind me a little too much of the chaos spawn and mutant renegades I have already done so much with.





Thanks so much for every ones replies and advice so far! I'm starting to feel that old Commorragh spirit coming back a bit. Anyone who has anymore advice to offer please chime in.


Back to top Go down
Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
avatar

Posts : 918
Join date : 2014-09-08

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 08:46

Quote :
I'll definatly give the Grotesques another look over and maybe see if i can think of a way to model them in a way I feel is a little more in line with the style I'm going for (maybe ill take a peak at some Warhammer fantasy dark elves or vampire counts models and consider what could be done with some tubes and needles). I have always really liked the humonkuli but the grotesques just remind me a little too much of the chaos spawn and mutant renegades I have already done so much with.

These are mine:





Made from Horde Warspears (5 of them cost as much as a single GW Grot) and spar Talos/Cronos Parts. Saves you up quite a lot of money and they do look different.
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7188
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 09:20

And mine, made from Crypt Horrors and Talos/Cronos bitz.


_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 11:11

@nexs wrote:

You have 2 ravagers (assumingly with dark lances) and a bomber, so anti tank isn't a problem.

Against IG? Not even close.

Bear in mind that, on average, you need 3 Ravagers to kill a single chimera. If it's in ruins, then you'll need 6.

2 Ravagers and a Bomber isn't remotely enough.
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3064
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 13:11

Not even close.
Back to top Go down
Nariaklizhar
Sybarite


Posts : 368
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : California

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 14:25

Try reavers in squads of 9 (3 being he majic number to get the caltrops) In a unit of 9, you can take 3 caltrops. And as stated earlier, I would avoid taking any special guns on them. I would also consider more raiders and run 5 man blaster squads with a dl on the raider for more anti tank
Back to top Go down
iknowinewb
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 40
Join date : 2015-06-18

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 14:36

I would recommend spreading out objectives (if you do play em) and go for points, it'll force his army to split up so you can focus fire on one unit, If you want to almost guarantee a dead transport go with an archon + trueborn/scourge wwp load out, the unit is going to die, but if you go ham and throw on a shadowfield on the archon you'll have a 2++ distraction for 1 turn of shooting. If you kill his warlord and take firstblood this way you've earned the points back.

Deploying stuff out of LOS would also help, as for the bikes it doesnt matter if the guys without the cluster caltrops die to overwatch, meaning treat em like cheap bodies.

And try to place more pieces of terrain on the board, every blocked lasgun/cannon is another potential hitpoint saved.
Also, for warlord traits go for the ones in the main rulebook, ours are a joke (except for the 2nd one)

TLDR: Suicide distraction wwp archon w/trueborn or scourge
        Roll BRB warlord traits
        Cluster caltrop'ed reaver = important, no caltrop no worth = warm bodies
        Split your objectives (think of it as fleeing mon keigh)
        Points = win (think of it as capturing fleeing mon keigh)
Back to top Go down
BlackCadian
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 191
Join date : 2014-10-12

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 15:19

Some great advice already here! First of all, don't give up hope! Dark Eldar are definitely a finesse army, and very fragile (sans Coven units). As such they can be a frustrating army to field at times.

Now as for going Astra Militarum, from my personal limited experience, they're actually one of my favourite matchups!

Like Jimsolo said, you've actually got a fairly solid core - Venoms are great, Ravagers are pretty good and Jetbikes, too, are pretty good (just maybe not against heavy flamer units :/). What I would do is run the Voidraven as a Razorwing (stock missles plus splinter cannon). That unit alone has struck fear into the heart of my IG opponent - those missles will clear blobs like nobodys business.

Also, like Jimsolo said, pick up some Scourges next. They're very versatile in their weapon loadout. Got blob problems? Splinter Cannons will wreck them. Heavy Armor getting you down? Haywire/Heat Lance/Dark Lance is all very nice. Last game vs my IG buddy I deep struck a unit of them with heat lances close to his gunline and blew up a tank of my choice. Sure, they'll die. But having a threatening unit in your face can do funny things to peoples target priority.

Speaking of deep striking, lately I've been playing around with max deep striking msu lists, and I can only recommend it (opposing army dependend). I haven't tried it vs IG yet, but suffering one fewer turn of shooting would be nice imho.

Regarding the Valkyrie(s) - maybe a Quad Gun/Icarus Bastion or ADL manned by a unit of dark lance scourges could help? Otherwise, I'd simply ignore them. Too much bother to bring down, much easier to kill the ground troops.

Oh, and lastly - what kind of missions do you usually play? I find that altar of war missions favor static armies, whereas maelstrom missions favor mobile ones. Therefore, in my gaming group we've had the most fun playing combined missions ITC style.

Hope this helped somewhat! You've come to the right place, thats for sure!

_________________
Check out my Kabal of the Withering Gardens - http://www.thedarkcity.net/t12351-kabal-of-the-withering-gardens
Back to top Go down
CptMetal
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2922
Join date : 2015-03-03
Location : Ruhr Metropolian Area

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 16:47

Can you fire overwatch when you are embarked in a vehicle? In a Raider or a Chimera? Did I read it right that your enemy did this?
Back to top Go down
Nariaklizhar
Sybarite


Posts : 368
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : California

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 16:49

Yes you can fire overwatch from a raider. Makes it even better with splinter racks!
Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 16:57

@CptMetal wrote:
Can you fire overwatch when you are embarked in a vehicle? In a Raider or a Chimera? Did I read it right that your enemy did this?

You can indeed fire overwatch from an open-topped vehicle if it's assaulted.

Weirdly though, the vehicle itself can't fire - even though our vehicles' guns are also being manned by the crew. So, you have the passengers frantically firing at an oncoming squad with murder in their eyes, whilst the guy manning the dark lance just sits back and drinks a cup of Dark Coffee or something. Razz
Back to top Go down
CptMetal
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2922
Join date : 2015-03-03
Location : Ruhr Metropolian Area

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 17:32

Can a Chimera passenger do overwatch? It can become open topped, doesn't it?
Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 17:47

@CptMetal wrote:
Can a Chimera passenger do overwatch? It can become open topped, doesn't it?

As far as I'm aware, chimeras are never open-topped, nor can they become such. Unless there's some weird forgeworld variant I'm unaware of.
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5490
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 18:30

An important question to me when I see your limited collection and hear about what he's fielding is this;

Could you tell me what point totals you guys are playing at and show us an example list?

I have a personal suspicion that you're pushing too many wasted points into your list and playing above what your collection supports.

Frankly, if you're playing anywhere above 1,000 points I am going to claim that my belief is correct. Because you barely have a functional 1,000 point collection there and should assuredly not be playing any games larger than that at this stage.

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Mr Believer
Wych
avatar

Posts : 727
Join date : 2011-09-11
Location : Nottinghamshire, UK

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 18:53

First of all Carcearion, don't lose hope! I had much the same experience as you did when I first started collecting Dark Eldar, always feeling like the stuff I had was under performing against opponents who kept buying stuff that I would have a really hard time with. It really got me down at first. Once I found out what worked for me, I started doing much better. I too always wanted to run Reavers, but even under the old codex I couldn't get them to work. I'm still tempted now, even though in this edition they've only come out of the box once (with disastrous results!). Better players than me could probably give you some tips on them, but I see most people running them in small to medium sized groups, often six with two sets of caltrops. I would go bigger than that myself, but that's because I like to overkill something rather than do the whole "death by a thousand cuts" thing.

My current list is actually pretty much exclusively kabalite, or at least has no coven and only a Succubus representing the cult side. I think it's perfectly possible to play without Grotesques, and I don't think you're hamstringing yourself by not taking them. Whilst they're great at dishing out and taking damage, I've always thought they'd be too slow for me.

Looking at your collection, it does seem like you're lacking anti-tank. Not just for going up against guard either, I'm talking about any even semi-mechanised list. Whilst the Voidraven does have those scarily powerful lances, it is extraordinarily expensive for what it does. I am not saying get rid of it, I'm not even saying proxy it. But if it is your only aircraft, it is going to struggle if you expect it to shoot down Vendettas and mop up ground targets - even in an ideal scenario where it comes on after the Vendetta, it gets two shots on it. Let's be generous and say they both hit. Chances are, one of those will penetrate or glance. If the Vendetta jinks, it has a 50/50 chance of ignoring that result altogether. If that happens, it flies off the table, automatically comes on in the next turn and fires at your Voidraven. And why is your Voidraven still there to be fired at? Because you had to keep it on the table to unload those missiles on ground targets in the next turn Mad Now, this will always be a problem for the Voidraven. But it's a problem that can be mitigated if you build your list with it in mind. If I was fielding a Voidraven, I would field it alongside at least a Razorwing (probably two) and two Ravagers, both with triple lances. The great thing about the Razorwing is that it's a fast attack choice, so you can get more birds in the sky than many other armies. Lances and lances alone will bring down enemy flyers, they are our only response to them unless they go into hover mode. A few shots from the Razorwings might be enough to get lucky, and if they don't do some damage he'll possibly be jinking. Six more snap shots from the Ravagers if they don't have anything higher priority to shoot at could hurt it too. I would say most of the time when I've shot down aircraft it's been with a snap shooting Ravager, now that I think about it! If all that has failed, you at least have an abundance of other tempting targets that the Vendetta might go for as opposed to the Voidraven. Yes, it's a lot of points, and won't scare some armies as much as others, but that's the nature of the game. Plus it'll look darn impressive when three sickle winged, supersonic death machines swoop over the battlefield!

I'm not a fan of blasterborn myself. Never got on with them. I do much better now fielding multiple small units of warriors in Venoms (four, to be precise), each with a blaster. It's not that exciting, sure, but they pump out a lot of anti-infantry fire and can still stop a tank if you're lucky. I tend to run all four round the battlefield together (roughly a large blast template apart from one another of course!) so even if one or two go down, the other two can fire back at whatever took them down. It's enough firepower to keep single units well away from them, which tends to mean the Venoms can move from cover to cover drawing line of sight on one target at a time and wiping them out systematically. They're great for funneling the enemy away from them too, bunching them up for missile shots or multiple charges. Two Venoms good, four Venoms better Twisted Evil

Scourges for the win! I go for two squads of five, each with four haywire blasters, others use heat lances, some use blasters. I prefer to keep them at a distance whilst still maintaining a degree of mobility myself, which the haywire blaster is perfect for. You can get two squads of Scourges, two Razorwings and two medium sized squads of Reavers into the Realspace Raiders detachment if you so desired, alongside the Voidraven. Alternatively, perhaps try adding just one Razorwing in to a regular Combined Arms detachment alongside the Reavers, so you keep Objective Secured, have an increased aerial presence (thus allowing the Voidraven to do its job better), and have a pretty fast list. Oh, and I'd say definitely drop the rams. They seem fun and everything, but actually they're not all that fluffy and they're quite expensive. Also, I think if you crash them into a Land Raider or similar AV14 vehicle, isn't it more likely to blow up the Raider? I might be misremembering, but I thought that was the case... Anyway, this has turned out longer than I thought it would, but those are my thoughts, hope they help! Keep the Dark Eldar faith!

_________________
My other car is a Ravager
Back to top Go down
@miral
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 174
Join date : 2013-09-14

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Tue Aug 11 2015, 20:36

You are new to DE and face off against an experienced IG commander - that is not easy to start with. I played IG many times when I was already experienced and most of the games I won I had only a couple models left. It is hard to figure out a plan at the beginning. I read some great advice already and want to double some of it: more terrain, try out grotesques or sslyth (both to be proxied at first: termis or spawns do well by size) as well as scourges. And also, swap armies and play against your own list with your friend's models. Just to get to know the army better and maybe even to win a game
Back to top Go down
Carcearion
Slave
avatar

Posts : 21
Join date : 2015-07-15
Location : Oregon

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Fri Aug 14 2015, 17:39

Wow. Once again i want to thank everyone on the forum for all the much needed support and great advice I'm getting. Its keeping me afloat. I played another game just last night and got some much improved results, I was one mistake away from a pretty secure victory, unfortunately though I am now 2 wins and 9 loses with my Dark Eldar.


Some Responses:

@iknowinewb: Spreading out the points was a huge help to me! Frankly I was one greedy assault away from winning the game thanks to that advice. (I just had to assault with my Kabalites to finish off his vet squad instead of staying on the point, and didn't make it back into control with the consolidation move).

@Thor665: I don't really wanna post the whole army list here in this thread but after reading your comment and looking over my list I will tell you my army was defiantly crippled by upgrade-bloat. Rams, Aethersails, unnecessary weapon mixes, and frankly an over abundance of five man jetbike squads with guns they shouldn't have been sacrificing their junk save to use/or loosing use of because of jink. I felt allot less miss-matched and did much better then normal with a slimmed down list. My opponent was even playing with a seriously solid camo Veteran-Chimera list instead of the usual "trying stuff out" armies and I still fared significantly better. However I still couldn't fit it in under 1,000 (although i am running two blasterborn squads), the two Ravagers and the Razorwing put me 300-ish over (they are expensive).

@Mr Believer: I have been playing around with different weapon load outs and I have more or less been going half Disintegration and half Dark-Lance for my vehicles. I run one Distengrator Raider and one Distegrator Ravager then a Dark Lancers version of both. The Distenegrators seem great for catching side and back armor, and I'm having a frustrating time hitting with the Dark Lances. Whats your (and any one else) feelings on this? Should i go back to trying the all Dark Lance sets again? It is frustrating to have to give up on certain targets because of i cant get that vulnerable armor 10, but when i can (or i have a squad of dudes caring allot of expensive special weapons to shoot at) the Distengrators feel very effective. Also thanks for letting me know there are people who can get by with a mostly Kabalite army! Once again i like coven stuff, but i already have so much mutated chaos stuff they seem just a little too similar and I really want to do something different.


Some general responses to stuff I've heard from allot of people:

+Terrain: I play with pretty decent terrain on the board, I make my own terrain (quite well I think) and have an awful lot of complex ruins terrain (in a large range of sizes). Everyone I play with are all down for narrative terrain set up and I generally have a destroyed city-scape to work with. I normally go for the old 5th Ed standard of 25% of the board should have terrain.

+Razorwing: Lol the Voidraven in my original post was actually a typo as i was thinking about proxing my Razorwing for one to try it out and see if I got any results. Also I was using old 6th ed rules for missiles and have yet to actually fire all 4 missiles in one devastating barrage (I am looking forward to it). Also damn the Razorwing is a cool looking model.

+Scourges: I tried these guys out once and found I had trouble getting them into range with the enemy, and unfortunately once again im trying to keep my DE as different as possible from my other armies and i already use extensive deep striking melta raptors with my Chaos Space Marines. I did think about throwing them in a raider with haywire blasters though... is this a crazy idea?

Some General Questions:

+Shadow Field: Do people find it worth it? I like to run my Archon with a blaster and stick him in a Raider with some Blasterborn. I have tried it and had good and bad results but well.... its exspenvie. What are peoples thoughts? I always think about that slay the warlord point, and other objective cards and feel like its a good call.

+Distraction Unit: I'm used to my Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons, and either a pair of close combat dreadnaughts or the unstoppable advance of my great unclean one invariable soak allot of fire or wreck noobs who ignore them. I know how much I've talked about trying to keep this army different, but who knows where i might end up stearing things, i was curious about what worked well for Dark Eldar for this roll. Totally open to Coven stuff on this one of course.

Viable Units: Hellions, Beastmasters, Mandrakes, Wyches. I've heard allot of bad things about these units and looking at their codex entries inst very inspiring. Anyone know any good (even specific) uses for them?


I know im repeating my self but you guys are what have kept me from giving up on what I have always thought was the best looking army in the game, I've wanted to play Dark Eldar for over five or six years now (they where almost my choice for my first ever army). Love their style, their lore, their viscous cycle of self perpetuating evil, the blades, the blades on blades, everything. Once I have crawled my way out of the Sprawls I look forward to looking down disdainfully on the filthy monkai with the rest of you.


Thank you all again
Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Fri Aug 14 2015, 18:00

@Carcearion wrote:

+Shadow Field: Do people find it worth it? I like to run my Archon with a blaster and stick him in a Raider with some Blasterborn. I have tried it and had good and bad results but well.... its exspenvie. What are peoples thoughts? I always think about that slay the warlord point, and other objective cards and feel like its a good call.

If you're using blasterborn, I'd rather put those points into a WWP for precision deep-strikes.

With regard to the Shadow Field in general, I really don't like them. It seems badly overpriced, and the sort of defence I really don't want to rely on. But then, I think Archons are terrible HQs to begin with. Neutral

@Carcearion wrote:

+Distraction Unit: I'm used to my Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons, and either a pair of close combat dreadnaughts or the unstoppable advance of my great unclean one invariable soak allot of fire or wreck noobs who ignore them. I know how much I've talked about trying to keep this army different, but who knows where i might end up stearing things, i was curious about what worked well for Dark Eldar for this roll. Totally open to Coven stuff on this one of course.

The best distraction unit is probably the Dark Artisan formation - a Talos, a Cronos and a Haemonculus as a single unit. With T7 3+ saves and (thanks to the Cronos) 4+ FNP, It can absorb a lot of damage. Also, since the Haemonculus can take a WWP, you can have it drop down in your opponent's deployment zone. It also makes a pretty good warlord-bunker.

Alternatively, if you want some cheaper distractions (the above comes to ~375pts, depending on upgrades), you could consider multiple 3- or 6-man reaver squads with Cluster Caltrops and Blasters/Heat Lances. With turbo boost, they can be on the other side of the table on turn 1. Jink and Skilled Rider makes them a pain to deal with if the enemy is lacking flamers or Ignores Cover. And, their weapons make them a threat to pretty much anything.

I use 3-man squads (because I only own 9), and I really love these guys. They're really good at killing vehicles (either with their lances, or simply by ramming them), and usually draw a lot of attention on the way.

@Carcearion wrote:

Viable Units: Hellions, Beastmasters, Mandrakes, Wyches. I've heard allot of bad things about these units and looking at their codex entries inst very inspiring. Anyone know any good (even specific) uses for them?

Grab a handful of them and throw them at your opponent - if you get him in the eye, you'll probably win the game by default. It is the Dark Eldar way. Twisted Evil
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5490
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   Fri Aug 14 2015, 18:50

@Carcearion wrote:
@Thor665: I don't really wanna post the whole army list here in this thread but after reading your comment and looking over my list I will tell you my army was defiantly crippled by upgrade-bloat. Rams, Aethersails, unnecessary weapon mixes, and frankly an over abundance of five man jetbike squads with guns they shouldn't have been sacrificing their junk save to use/or loosing use of because of jink. I felt allot less miss-matched and did much better then normal with a slimmed down list. My opponent was even playing with a seriously solid camo Veteran-Chimera list instead of the usual "trying stuff out" armies and I still fared significantly better. However I still couldn't fit it in under 1,000 (although i am running two blasterborn squads), the two Ravagers and the Razorwing put me 300-ish over (they are expensive).
No worries - I think "army bloat" is one of the most common newbie mistakes early on and it is particularly deleterious to the Dark Eldar as we don't even get much harder to kill with a lot of bloat.

Looking at your list of models, I'm still seeing about a 1000 point army, though at least 1300 sounds better. I think you're probably still fielding too many bikes - bikes are not likely to make a solid center for a list in my opinion (an opinion not everyone shares, but I do think no one would disagree with me that they are an incredibly risky option and certainly an extra complication for someone still learning the army)

I would not particularly advocate Trueborn, myself, I think they're too expensive for what they do nowadays. This opinion does seem to be reasonably well shared amongst competitive DE players - you may, of course, draw your own conclusions.

Ravagers should never be too expensive - you should buy them just lances and *maybe* (if you love them - I don't) nightshields. That should be it. Seriously.

@Carcearion wrote:
I run one Distengrator Raider and one Distegrator Ravager then a Dark Lancers version of both. The Distenegrators seem great for catching side and back armor, and I'm having a frustrating time hitting with the Dark Lances. Whats your (and any one else) feelings on this? Should i go back to trying the all Dark Lance sets again?
Dissies good on side/rear armor? Eh - they perform slightly better against AV 10 but worse vs. AV 11 (not by a lot) and the lance performs substantially better against everything else. So the only time they are "better" for armor is if you're getting rear armor or are shooting something that is pretty easy to damage in the first place - whereas the lances will help you more sooner because they can effect front facing and side facing armor better or basically equally to the Dissie.

If you're having issues with lances (and I admit there are many reasons to) I do submit that the answer is 'bring more lances'.

At 1000 points I often and generally will have 11+ lance weapons in my army because that's what you need to make a dent in opposing armor with lances.

@Carcearion wrote:
Also thanks for letting me know there are people who can get by with a mostly Kabalite army!
I run almost pure Kabal - I think it is an excellent build.

@Carcearion wrote:
I normally go for the old 5th Ed standard of 25% of the board should have terrain.
I will just note that, in 5th, that was the advocated minimum amount of terrain.

@Carcearion wrote:
+Scourges: I tried these guys out once and found I had trouble getting them into range with the enemy, and unfortunately once again im trying to keep my DE as different as possible from my other armies and i already use extensive deep striking melta raptors with my Chaos Space Marines. I did think about throwing them in a raider with haywire blasters though... is this a crazy idea?
That is a crazy idea, unfortunately. As jump infantry they are bulky and cannot embark on a Raider.

@Carcearion wrote:
+Shadow Field: Do people find it worth it? I like to run my Archon with a blaster and stick him in a Raider with some Blasterborn. I have tried it and had good and bad results but well.... its exspenvie. What are peoples thoughts? I always think about that slay the warlord point, and other objective cards and feel like its a good call.
If he's shooting with a bunch of shooty mooks I see little value to it unless you're trying to use him to absorb wounds. Let the mooks do LoS roles - that's a 2+ save all its own. I find that upgrade pretty expensive and slightly meaningless nowadays.

@Carcearion wrote:
+Distraction Unit: I'm used to my Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons, and either a pair of close combat dreadnaughts or the unstoppable advance of my great unclean one invariable soak allot of fire or wreck noobs who ignore them. I know how much I've talked about trying to keep this army different, but who knows where i might end up stearing things, i was curious about what worked well for Dark Eldar for this roll. Totally open to Coven stuff on this one of course.
In that role I would suggest that Cove stuff is your only option. Grots or Talosi being the contenders. Some of the formations can be good here also, like Corpsethief, Dark Artisan, and Grotesquerie.

@Carcearion wrote:
Viable Units: Hellions, Beastmasters, Mandrakes, Wyches. I've heard allot of bad things about these units and looking at their codex entries inst very inspiring. Anyone know any good (even specific) uses for them?
Short answer: no.
Long answer: people have a few very iffy uses for them. Probably Mandrake objective sitters is the best I've seen - and that should tell you how iffy most of the others are.

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Losing hope please help   

Back to top Go down
 
Losing hope please help
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Drukhari Tactics
-
Jump to: