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 Deep strike a Talos?

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Hellion
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PostSubject: Deep strike a Talos?   Sun Aug 09 2015, 17:25

So my Talos keeps getting destroyed and I'm trying to find a way of making it more effective. It's armed with a heat lance and a liquefier. I have a haemonculous who uses the web way portal to deep strike along with a unit of 6 Incubi, I was wondering is there a rule or rules that would prevent me from including the Talos in the deep strike along with them? Forgive me if this is a stupid question, I'm still learning the game.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sun Aug 09 2015, 17:34

A talos cannot join another unit and cannot be joined by another unit. However, if you have the Haemonculus Coven Supplement, you can have a formation called the Dark Artisan that allows you to make a unit consisting of 1 talos, 1 Cronos, and 1 Haemonculus. They must remain as a single unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sun Aug 09 2015, 17:36

Ooh, wow, in the future then this may be a good plan! It's fixed lists in the tournament I'm presently in so I can't try that, but I'll have a go once the tourney is over. Ta.
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sun Aug 09 2015, 17:56

So I'll change this around a little. Tactics for getting my Talos to survive further than the first turn? Am I best just hiding it as much as possible?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sun Aug 09 2015, 18:13

Hide it. Bring more than one.

Arguably, sucking up all the first turn firepower is their primary ROLE when fielded solo, and surviving is an ancillary concern. If you make sure your forces have moved up to where they need to be, then the fate of the Talos is incidental.
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sun Aug 09 2015, 18:14

Fair point and one that had crossed my mind, I guess I'd just like to see it have the chance to shoot at and kill something!
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sun Aug 09 2015, 18:17

After your league, get either a Corpsethief Claw or a Dark Artisan. That'll put some bang in their bustle.
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sun Aug 09 2015, 18:17

I'll have a look at those, thank you
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sun Aug 09 2015, 18:35

Other than being a bullet magnet I don't see the point of the Talos unless you commit to it fully. It's like taking one artillery gun to a trench war - waste of time. Go big or go home. Corpsthief Claw is your go to GO BIG unit. Nothing says screw you like a Corpsethief breathing down your neck! The Dark Artisan is your deep incision unit. You insert it right into the heart of your opponent and watch him cry. Don't forget to bring a bucket to collect all those tears!

Outside of Coven Formations I don't see why you would field a Talos, particularly a lone Talos. They're slow and will get shot up by your opponent as soon as it becomes a threat. Taking more than one will keep them alive longer but you're pumping points into a unit that might do some damage vs a unit(2) that will do some damage. The deployment buffs the Talos gets from the Coven Formations removes their major weakness (speed) and puts them just where you want them right away. So I'd urge you to go Coven Formations with them or just leave them out of your list.

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Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sun Aug 09 2015, 18:37

Thank you, that's excellent advice, much appreciated.
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Mon Aug 10 2015, 23:01

I’m surprised your talos gets killed straight away, albeit I never field less than two. As you’re new to the game are you rolling for feel no pain when it’s wounded by AP3 weapons or better? I’d be interested in knowing what is killing it. T7, 3+, 5+++, 3wound MC are not that easy to deal with. Albeit if it’s sitting out all by itself as the only thing to be shot at then it will be in trouble.

Truthfully the best way to use talos is taking two (preferably 3) with TL haywire blasters, place it in the centre of your deployment at far forward as you can and march the unit towards the enemy. Use them as board control. Pure distraction unit that helps you to put pressure on with your other units / gives other units cover (not as in cover save as in something scary that your opponent is more likely to shoot at rather than our weaker units). if your opponent is aggressive you might even get the chance to charge turn two. They’re quite good in CC.

While you’re marching the talos unit up the board, flat out grotesquery formation in raiders (with sails) to give your opponent something to really think about. Who said CC was dead?

Personally I prefer two units of two (or three depending on points) over the corpse thief claw it’s just harder to deal with.
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Thu Aug 13 2015, 16:08

Keep in mind also that while deepstriking gets you where you want to be, you're not guaranteed to get the squad until turn 4, and then you still can't assault the turn you do arrive.

Best case, you get them turn 2 where you want them, get to shoot. You have to weather a round of shooting by your opponent, depending on how visible you are. If you landed where you have LOS, then you're already in LOS. You can assault turn 3.

Worst case (because the dice gods hate you), you get them turn 4 where you want them, get to shoot. You have to weather a round of shooting by your opponent, depending on how visible you are. If you landed where you have LOS, then you're already in LOS. You can assault turn 5. Game over. Yes you kept them alive, but you had those points sitting off the board not doing anything, not soaking fire, putting you at a 330+ point disadvantage for the majority of the game.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Thu Aug 13 2015, 16:36

So you consider all shock troops a waste of points?
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Thu Aug 13 2015, 16:39

Nahh, just a gamble.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Thu Aug 13 2015, 20:04

There is a psychological effect on your ennemi to have a dark artisan ready to deep strike where you want it. Even if it does nothing because it arrive too late to be useful, the enemy is generally less agressive, and keep troops ready to protect their valuable units. It has a value, too.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Thu Aug 13 2015, 22:59

Given how unlikely a first turn assault is, a Dark Artisan is always going to be vulnerable to a round of shooting. At least with DS you can close to where you want to be, and be guaranteed to get a round of shooting in yourself.
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Fri Aug 14 2015, 10:35

@dumpeal wrote:
There is a psychological effect on your ennemi to have a dark artisan ready to deep strike where you want it. Even if it does nothing because it arrive too late to be useful, the enemy is generally less agressive, and keep troops ready to protect their valuable units. It has a value, too.

This is a concept know in naval warfare as "Fleet in Being". WW" was extended because both the Italians and Germans had significant naval forces stationed on their coasts that would have to be taken out before invasions could begin. Their very presence tied up allied naval assets and kept them from being deployed elsewhere in case those fleets became aggressive. It's arguable that the British alone might have stopped the Imperial Japanese navy had it not have to old back much of it's force to deal with the potential threats in Europe.

This same concept applies to a Dark Artisan (and a lot of other units in the game). Just the possibility of it coming in via DS is enough to completely alter your opponent's strategy. He can't take risks lest his core units be left without support/protection. He can't shoot for objectives too much lest he leave his backline vulnerable. The very presence of the DA in your reserves forces your opponent to play a more defencive and passive game. Against a Tau or IG gunline army this might have little effect (unless you can DS into cover for a safe follow up assault that could wreck them) but against anything mobile it's gonna affect their strategy significantly. As the DE aren't an army to just stand and fight they get more bang out of directing/funnelling the enemy where they want to be. Positioning and target selection are key for the DE but this is just the passive self-affecting part of your strategy. Your active side - manoeuvring and funnelling the enemy into avenues of fire is greatly affected by having something like the DA in reserve and it's this side of your strategy that has the greatest impact on mobile armies.

The DA unit helps you to win the psychological war (if you're playing competitively) and that's half the battle. Your'e forcing the other guy to react to you. But simultaneously your other units are great for reacting to him. There's an old concept used in 40k of the Water Warrior but there are also types for the other 3 elements too. The DE are a great Water army but the DA formation gives them a powerful Air potential. You can dance around the opponent striking where you want, avoiding his assets yet at the same time forcing him to operate in ways he doesn't want to. Every battleplan falters as soon as the first shot is fired but your strategy with a DA is to completely destroy the opponents plan and rely on the DE's great ability to adapt and react to the table, i.e. you have no solid battleplan but to destroy your opponents.

Sorry for the length of the comment but this is a component of wargaming strategy that can't be given justice with a single sentence Smile

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ThePhish
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Fri Aug 14 2015, 17:18

@Jimsolo wrote:
Given how unlikely a first turn assault is, a Dark Artisan is always going to be vulnerable to a round of shooting.  At least with DS you can close to where you want to be, and be guaranteed to get a round of shooting in yourself.

Aren't first turn assaults impossible?  I could have sworn there was a rule made specifically to prevent a first turn assault, regardless of how close you were.  I may be mistaken.  I will have to look that up.

Edit: Scouts and infiltrators are not allowed to assault turn 1.  Both are specifically denied.  Are there any other ways to accomplish this in turn 1?  I can't find any other rule specifically barring it.  An old tactic for DE, that may could still be accomplished with some good assault rolling... deploy a raider sideways, move 6" and rotate the raider 90° facing the enemy, disembark the 6" and you end up with roughly 12"-14" total movement measuring from the nose of the raider.  If you get a really good 10-12" assault roll, survive overwatch etc. it may be possible.  Difficult, as stated though.

@Demantiae and @dumpeal
I understand the importance of the psychological effect that it can have, and have used it multiple times.  My only point was that it's still a gamble, or a decision you will have to make based on the match.  Your own tactics will likely change based on the decision to deepstrike them, or not to deepstrike them.  Having the option to do does give you an 'ace in the hole' in case you are faced with something that you need to slow the rush down and give the opponent something to think about.  In which case, talk up just how bad ass that unit is going to be when it lands in the backfield.

While the psychological effects have the potential to be profound, you are still intentionally putting yourself at a disadvantage from turn 1, with no guarantee of when you're going to get that unit.  It's a decent point sink at 1/5 of a 1500 point game.  

With that argument, I know that points on paper don't equal effectiveness on the board, especially so in Warhammer world, but any advantage you have should be exploited, and imo, you're giving your opponent an advantage.

If it was me, and I tend to play more aggressive, I know that I have the option to simply ignore it, and try to hammer the units on the board since I have a higher number of points on the board for possibly 2 turns.  I say 2 turns because that unit is better in CC, and It can't assault until turn 3 minimum, regardless of if it comes in turn 2.  If I succeed, that unit may come in with no support.  If I don't, I'll have a nasty, angry

All things to consider one way or the other, since the OP is still learning the game and attempting to make better use of his Talos.

As the opponent to that unit, knowing it's in reserve, how would you counter it?

Edit:  I apologize if I've derailed the thread a little.  I'm just trying to point out that while it is possible to deepstrike them as asked, it may/may not be feasible.
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Fri Aug 14 2015, 19:16

Scarabs can assault 36" from their deployment zone.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Fri Aug 14 2015, 20:41

@ThePhish Your point is totally valid. But with some reserve manipulation, it's not that bad.
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Fri Aug 14 2015, 23:15

The easiest first turn assault is if you happen to go second. If your opponent is foolish enough to move forward, it may very well make an unassisted assault out of your deployment zone very possible.

There are abilities that add to your move or charge distance that would make it possible, including the Harlequins warlord trait.

Depending on your group's ruling on pivot and move shenanigans, that's always a viable possibility for Orks, Necrons, and us.

Not common, but possible. I can't remember seeing it happen in this edition.
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sat Aug 15 2015, 12:32

I take it you rarely face Khorne daemon kin or come across massed Khorne dogs? I only say as I regularly play against them (my best friend plays them) and when he goes first he generally has at least 5 units of dogs just out side my deployment zone turn 1, while he moves the rest of his army up the field…… it’s generally easy for a first turn assault
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sat Aug 15 2015, 13:29

@der-al wrote:
I take it you rarely face Khorne daemon kin or come across massed Khorne dogs? I only say as I regularly play against them (my best friend plays them) and when he goes first he generally has at least 5 units of dogs just out side my deployment zone turn 1, while he moves the rest of his army up the field…… it’s generally easy for a first turn assault    

I play against Daemonkin. I just don't deploy where they can get to me turn 1.

Preventing your opponent from getting a turn 1 assault is (in most cases) super easy. Sometimes a unit or army you're unfamiliar with might surprise you, but in most cases you can prevent it through your own deployment.
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sat Aug 15 2015, 14:52

sorry you miss understood me, as i was obvoiusly not very clear, he does not assult me turn 1, he is just at / in my deployment zone turn one, his dogs scout 12", move 12" run D6 giving him a turn one move of 25" to 30" i.e right in my face, forcing me to deal with his dogs first. I'm the one that does the first turn assult (if i go second).
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Deep strike a Talos?   Sat Aug 15 2015, 15:25

Ah. My bad, lol.

Yeah, if your opponent goes first, that's definitely the easiest way.
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