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CptMetal
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PostSubject: fortress of redemption    Thu Aug 06 2015, 06:46

Hello,
In the tactic corner the possibility is talked about, that you could deep Strike a fortress using a WWP. Can one of you guys with the English rule book provide me with the English rule for prepare reserves in the mission preparations section?

The German rules indicate that it's not possible.
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Thu Aug 06 2015, 08:32


P135 BRB, "Preparing Reserves";
"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle"

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Thu Aug 06 2015, 09:12

That part

The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle"

indicates that the fortress indeed can't be shocked with a WWP
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Thu Aug 06 2015, 13:07

Actually, it indicates that it can. So long as there's room to put it out, you can opt instead to put it in Reserve.

Otherwise this rule would prevent you from Deep Striking Gauss Pylons (a rule they were clearly intended to use, since they have it) and from using Drop Pods at all.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Thu Aug 06 2015, 21:30

I agree on Jimsolo on this one, when you read the rule it says to me that it is only destroyed if there isn't room for it to be deployed. However, if there is room left on the table to deploy it then it can be deployed via deep strike.

Jimsolo also provided examples of other things that can deep strike but cannot move after. Think of it as a massive Drop pod. I bet the space marines with all their big toys will have drop pod envy.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Thu Aug 06 2015, 22:55

But there is a special rule for drop pods. It explicitly allows them to deep Strike although they can't move.

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

Not much to discuss here. After this we could be able to put the Bunker into reserves.

"In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve."

Keyword: in addition. So the other way to put some units in Reserve is if there isn't enough room left.

"The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed."

Here it's important. The only exception to the things above (because it's linked with "in addition") is things that cannot move after deployment.

"Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle."

They have to be deployed at the beginning or count as casualties.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Thu Aug 06 2015, 23:27

@CptMetal wrote:
But there is a special rule for drop pods. It explicitly allows them to deep Strike although they can't move.

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

Not much to discuss here. After this we could be able to put the Bunker into reserves.

"In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve."

Keyword: in addition. So the other way to put some units in Reserve is if there isn't enough room left.

"The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed."

Here it's important. The only exception to the things above (because it's linked with "in addition") is things that cannot move after deployment.

"Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle."

They have to be deployed at the beginning or count as casualties.

By the rules you've quoted here, if there IS room to deploy a building, you may still place it in Reserves. It is only destroyed if it cannot be deployed, not if it can be deployed but is not deployed. In that case, it sits in Reserve, unless it has a way to arrive on the table (which Deep Strike grants to it).
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 06:37

Um... It is destroyed if it can't move after deployment. Before you mention drop pods. Those have a special rule explicit mentioning that they aren't destroyed.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 07:03

No, it is destroyed if it can't move after deployment and cannot be deployed. Two conditions must be met. If there is room to deploy it, but you choose not to, then the second condition is unmet and the model is not destroyed.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 08:05

Let's do it like math. I love math.

(you can choose not to deploy and/or if not enough room in deployment zone it's put into reserve) except units that cannot move after deployment.

So the except part refers to both reasons to put something into reserves.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 10:02

I just wrote the rules department of games workshop regarding the idea. We'll see. I will keep you updated.
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 12:21

"Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle."  In this case, 'such units' = 'units which cannot move after deployment.'  Therefore, the statement is the same as "Units which cannot move after deployment are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle."  Therefore, if it IS possible, but you elect not to, they aren't destroyed.

Would you tell a Necron player he couldn't Deep Strike a Gauss Pylon despite it having the Deep Strike rule?

@CptMetal wrote:
I just wrote the rules department of games workshop regarding the idea. We'll see. I will keep you updated.

You do realize they give conflicting answers?  They are notorious for lacking rhyme, reason, or consistency, since there is no actual 'rules team' answering the phone/messages.  You just get the answer of some...guy, with no more connection to the actual rules than you or I.
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 16:31

@CptMetal
First of all this isn't a math problem this is a language problem but lets break it down into if, then statements.

If the player chooses to place an unit in reserve then it is placed in reserve.
If the player chooses to place an unit in reserve then it is placed in reserve, If a unit has deep strike it can then be deployed. If there isn't room for the unit and it cannot move, then it is destroyed.
If there isn't room with in the deployment zone then the unit is placed in reserve.
If there isn't room within the deployment zone and the unit is unable to move then it is destroy.

If Jimsolo chooses to place the fortress in reserve then the fortress is placed in reserve.
If there isn't room in the deployment zone for Jimsolo to deploy the Fortress when he attempted to deploy it, then the fortress is destroyed.
If Jimsolo rolls for reserves, attempts to deploy the fortress via wwp deep strike and there isn't enough room for the fortress then it is destroyed.

Placing it in reserve doesn't destroy it lack of room on the board and it's inability to move destroys it.

I would also note that, I believe, the none movement part is referring to units that can neither move nor deep strike as it would be preeminently stuck in reserve so for gaming purposes it is considered destroyed. An Imperial Guard player who chose to place his Fortress in reserve has no way of deploying it so it counts as being destroyed. An Imperial Guard player who attempts to deploy the fortress on the board but didn't leave enough room for it has to place it in reserve, as it can't move or deep strike the fortress is effectively destroyed for gaming purposes.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 16:36

I've already asked the faq team.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 16:47

I bet I know the jist answer. "We Games-workshop, never intended for Dark Eldar to do anything cool or interesting. While we can't see a fault in the logic behind it we have ruled that this is a violation of rules as intended and you, a dark eldar player shall be prohibited from doing this in game. Thank you for wasting your money on Dark Eldar, we appreciate the money you have already spent and would like to refer you to the much cooler Space Marine Codices and line of models, they can do just about everything the Dark Eldar do and better, we are sure you will like them after putting more money in our pockets. Thank you, Games-Workshop."
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 16:52

The more common answer these days seems to be "We the dev team have abdicated all responsibility for the rules and their administration. The best course of action would be to find a solution that works for your group. We are, after all, a miniatures company and not a game company."
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 16:55

Fine ruin my fun Jimsolo.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 17:29

I mailed the faq team.

I just don't get your logic. It says it's destroyed if it can't move. How fat can it move? Do you have a fast Skimmer fortification? No? So it can't move. And no: Deep striking is no movement.
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 17:42

The rule states:  "The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle"

Refer to the second sentence quoted, "Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the deployment step..."

He isn't attempting to deploy it at this time he is placing it in reserve, during the deployment step, it will be destroyed if there isn't room for it.

The rule states that you can place units in reserve, correct? (This is what he is planning on doing so the rule stops here for him.)
The rule then states that if you attempt to deploy a unit and that there isn't room for a unit then it is place in reserve even if you didn't choose to place the unit in reserve, correct?
The rule then states that the exception to units be forcefully place in reserve is if the unit is unable to move, correct?
The rule then goes on to elaborate on what happens, if the unit doesn't have room to deploy, is unable to move then it is removed as a casualty instead of being place in reserve.

Jimsolo is electing to place it in reserve, the stipulations on it being forced into reserve and thus destroyed don't apply as we are dealing with him choosing to place it in reserve. The rule stops there until it comes time to deploy. As there is a WWP character embarked, the fortress has deep strike and can be removed from reserve with a proper reserve roll and enough space to not destroy it.


Last edited by CurstAlchemist on Fri Aug 07 2015, 17:50; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Some rephrasing.)
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iknowinewb
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 18:19

However, going by that, all reserves must arrive by turn 4.
What if I keep a building in reserve without deepstrike and by all means it managed to not come in till turn 4.
How does it enter the board?
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 18:30

If it can't move or deep strike it would be destroyed as per " if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment" part of the rule. Can't move so can't come on from the edge and thus is destroyed.
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 19:15

"Jimsolo is electing to place it in reserve, the stipulations on it being forced into reserve and thus destroyed don't apply as we are dealing with him choosing to place it in reserve. The rule stops there until it comes time to deploy. As there is a WWP character embarked, the fortress has deep strike and can be removed from reserve with a proper reserve roll and enough space to not destroy it."

The stipulations are either one of those. Because both cases (electing not to place them OR no room in the Deployment zone) are linked with) ' in addition'. So let's say: the situation is true when you elect to place it in reserve or when there is no room. If it is true and the unit is unable to move, then it's destroyed.
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 19:53

The in addition is speaking of how a unit can be placed in reserve if you choose not to place that unit in reserve yourself. The only exception reads to me to say that units that are being forced into reserve and cannot move after being deployed are removed as casualties. The reasoning being the last part, "if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle. I'm not deploying them during the Preparing for battle step I'm placing it in reserve and granting it the deep strike ability by embarking the Archon. So to me that part is exclusive to the reserved units that were "forced", not chosen, to be placed in reserve.

Quote :
Fortification:
If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models.

So I can choose not to deploy it during the "preparing for battle step" but place it in reserve. Do you guys play it so that you have to first deploy all models in the deployment zone before placing them in reserve or do you automatically place it in reserve and tell your opponent?

Quote :
Pylon Rules:
-Teleport: A necron pylon must always arrive by deepstrike, it always arrives on turn one, does not scatter but must be placed at least 12inches away from enemy units.

Quote :
Webway portal: If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

So if we go off of your reasoning the "always arrives by deepstrike" has no meaning, as the "The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed" over rides it, you are saying the pylon can't be placed in reserve because it would be destroyed as it can't move as per the last part of the rule. Teleportation in this case is deepstriking and as you keep saying not movement. The fact it can't move means it is destroyed by your logic of the entire statement pertaining to not only forced reserve but also the elective reserve.
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 19:57

If that part would be exclusive for units forced into reserve, why is there the "in addition"?
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PostSubject: Re: fortress of redemption    Fri Aug 07 2015, 20:10

The in addition to me is talking about an additional way that a unit can find it's way into reserve besides choosing to place the unit in reserve from the get go.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I'm reading them correctly either. GW doesn't exactly do a good job on wording a lot of the time. Thus why I am attempting to place in comments such as, reads to me.
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