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 Least favorite moment of DE fluff?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Tue Sep 20 2011, 17:51

We often have threads featuring our favorite things, but I feel ready for some good old fashioned cathartic release via rage. So, what I'm asking is; what bit of DE fluff just really honked you off or made you shake your head and go 'why, GW, WRRRRY!?!'

For me, my least favorite bit of fluff is the whole Rise of Vect opener - basically the first *three pages* of the story. Now, I love me my Vect, but, in this story he basically nabs a strike cruiser of Salamanders and tows it into Commoragh itself (hur, no Librarians on board, I'm *certain*, huuuuur). Then some other Archons are basically all like, "sweet, a Space Marine strike cruiser - MINE!" and they take it...but then are TOTALLY UNPREPARED TO DEAL WITH SUBDUING THE MARINES ONBOARD because...y'know...they never expected the Marines to...fight back?

Then the Marines basically invade Commoragh itself, and proceed to kick the Dark City's tush. I mean, this "insane nightmare realm" of a city where, quite literally, reality and perception are constantly twisted around and the very laws of physics are in question, and the Salamanders just kind of drop pod in and proceed to kick the hell out of EVERYTHING.

It was embarrassing to think that, in fluff, apparently the entire Dark Eldar race would have trouble subduing some Space Marines (and begs the question of how Vect *ever* managed to capture them in the first place. There appears to be a grand total of one moment of DE functionality (where Lelith and the Wyches attack and kill *half* of the invaders...but then withdraw after betraying Archon Shoulda-seen-it-coming, and at that point it's like all DE capability to deal with the remaining 250 Marines is totally lost...bwuh?

Then, after it's all said and done, the Marines blow port, and Vect kind of sits there nodding as though this is a great thing and that he isn't worried at all that one Space Marine Chapter (of the thousand available to the Imperium) is almost capable of killing Commoragh itself...

This is equivalent to if there was a piece of fluff where Ghazkull busted into Terra and kicked butt for a while. Or some Grey Knights walked into the Eye of Terror and wuss slapped Nurgle (oh, wait...) but, in the end, I don't feel like this story showcases Vect's brilliance, I feel it showcases the incompetence of our entire faction and I really am not fond of it.

Anyone else?
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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Tue Sep 20 2011, 18:21

I was going to say the short story written by CS Goto re the Saim Hann Wildriders that features Lilith....it is awful from any PoV! Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Tue Sep 20 2011, 22:02

I really only have some minor gripes with the new fluff, and most of them can be easily ignored, like the changes made to Wych cult titles (as far as I'm concerned, a Succubus leads a team of Wyches, the leader of a team of Succubi is called a Dracite and the leader of a Wych cult is called an Archite) and Vect's new origin story (I loved how originally he had been around so long that he still fondly remembered the Eldar Empire of old).

Really, there are some minor things about the old codex I miss that I wish were present in the new (I wish they kept Terrorfexes and Horrorfexes in; their rules were just fine, in fact my old play style was largely based on Horrorfex spam, and I also miss the old retinue rules). Also, we don't have a single character, special or otherwise, who can ride a Reaver Jetbike.

Additionally, there are some special characters that I think would have made for better upgrade characters, or had some minor tweaks that made them more worthwhile (for example, Drazhar would be much more competitive if he were either a unit upgrade for an Incubi squad, or made them Troops, and the Dais of Destruction should probably have Aerial Assault, some sort of super Flickerfield and maybe an aura buff of some kind).

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Tue Sep 20 2011, 22:35

theblackjackal wrote:


Really, there are some minor things about the old codex I miss that I wish were present in the new (I wish they kept Terrorfexes and Horrorfexes in; their rules were just fine, in fact my old play style was largely based on Horrorfex spam, and I also miss the old retinue rules). Also, we don't have a single character, special or otherwise, who can ride a Reaver Jetbike.

Additionally, there are some special characters that I think would have made for better upgrade characters, or had some minor tweaks that made them more worthwhile (for example, Drazhar would be much more competitive if he were either a unit upgrade for an Incubi squad, or made them Troops, and the Dais of Destruction should probably have Aerial Assault, some sort of super Flickerfield and maybe an aura buff of some kind).

I agree entirely with all of this. Drazhar is way to expensive for what he is in this edition especially since lelith is cheaper and more killy. He would be better as a 150 unit upgrade along the lone of arjac from space wolves. WTF were they thinking when they didnt give the big man vects raider flicker fields? and i cant think of any other army where you cant give your general a personal vehicle so why cant an archon jump on a bike or have a homonculus slap some wings on him? but as much as i complain the dark eldar are my favorite army that ive played in 40k

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Tue Sep 20 2011, 23:19

Ability to upgrade Dais would do the trick.

I miss... Mandrakes.
Well, the old "I'm shadow elf" look that was replaced with "When Goths discovered brown coulour". Not like I don't like it (it's fu...nny) but too "Kaosey".

I also don't like what they did with old (now literally) Urien. Wat?

On the plus side I like that Haemonculi ain't just support characters, You can take coven(like) units in every slot (yes, Scourges seems to me like eyes and wings of Covens). Also story about "looting" Tau = epic win.

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Wed Sep 21 2011, 00:39

Thor665 wrote:
We often have threads featuring our favorite things, but I feel ready for some good old fashioned cathartic release via rage. So, what I'm asking is; what bit of DE fluff just really honked you off or made you shake your head and go 'why, GW, WRRRRY!?!'
I hate doing this, but I think you are over-reacting to the Vect story. For one, normally Imperial forces wouldn't even be able to enter Commoragh. The idea that the Imperium could obliterate the Dark Eldar in open warfare has been a long established, as is the idea that the Dark Eldar will never allow that to happen.

Second, I have a way of reading that fluff to make it considerably more palatable. The story specifically states that the siege of the Forgehammer before the Space Marine invasion took sixteen days. Everything else? Takes minutes.

Think about it. A mere 'hundreds' of Wyches slaughtered half of the attacking Space Marine force and the other half only got away because Lelith let them go. Is there even the slightest possibility that the Salamanders(and the three Chapters helping them) were facing anything but the merest fraction of the billions of Commoragh? Compressing the time scale of that battle makes everything come together: the Space Marines were attacking the districts to distract the Dark Eldar enough to get the Forgehammer out of there, the Space Marines survived because most of Commoragh just couldn't get there in time, and the faster pace fits the Dark Eldar and Space Marine character much better.

As for the fluff that I dislike the most?
'The Annals of Terror' from the old Dark Eldar Codex. It's not really terrible, just frustratingly wasted potential. Written from the perspective of an escaped Commoragh slave, it could have examined the character of the Dark Eldar in a meaningful way or anything about the culture of Commoragh. What we got? 'Dark Eldar BAAAAAD and EEEEEEEVIL!!!' Thanks Lasko Pyre, it's not like we got that in every other bit of background in this book or anything.

The only interesting thing to come out of that story was the claim that the Dark Eldar don't guard or corral their slaves at all, because they don't need to. Their territory is the only protection slaves have from the Dark City.

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Wed Sep 21 2011, 09:20

Judgex83 wrote:
I agree entirely with all of this. Drazhar is way to expensive for what he is in this edition especially since lelith is cheaper and more killy. He would be better as a 150 unit upgrade along the lone of arjac from space wolves. WTF were they thinking when they didnt give the big man vects raider flicker fields? and i cant think of any other army where you cant give your general a personal vehicle so why cant an archon jump on a bike or have a homonculus slap some wings on him? but as much as i complain the dark eldar are my favorite army that ive played in 40k

The Imperial Guard lack jump infantry and bikes entirely; their only faster-than-infantry-walking units are vehicles and Rough Rider cavalry, and you can't give non-Rough Rider units horses (not to mention that it's not only easily possible but also commonplace to field Guard forces without independent characters of any sort). I keep thinking about how cool it would be to run an Imperial Guard Cavalry regiment; nothing but men on horses supported by tanks and artillery.

Tau face a similar problem in that their most mobile HQ choice is their Battlesuit Commanders, who are already jet infantry (I've been working on a 5th edition Tau fandex from time to time, and a battlesuit upgrade I've been toying with is an advanced thruster system that changes the suit's unit type to Eldar Jetbike), and Sisters of Battle Canonesses recently lost their ability to take jump packs, but by and large it seems that the vast majority of codexes allow one to change the unit type of their HQ (Orks and every Space Marine codex except for possibly Grey Knights let your commander ride bikes and/or strap on a jump pack, Necrons and Eldar have the option of taking jetbike commanders and even Tyranids let you give your synapse gribblies wings).

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Wed Sep 21 2011, 15:54

I must also agree that The Rise of Vect is also a terrible piece of fluff, but not for the reasons pointed out.

Ok, DE are the boogiemen right??? Then why take away all the mystic overall leader??? All the Rise of Vect does is go into the background of where Vect came from, and what he did to get into power. I guess they were going for the whole "look at Vects awesome geniusness powers at pwning is opposition", but all it did was "Heh... Vect aint that scary since who didnt see this betrayal a mile away". I think they would of done better at the old "Vect has been around since the Fall," And "He is the reason the Dark Eldar survived" Type of deal, because who has been around since then to really argue with him??? (Except maybe Urien) Making Vect apear more human (or Eldar) and less of a myth does not further the writers goal of making him seem "a super evil force". But then again they wrote this story just to throw in SMs somewhere in our book...

Personally I didnt like Incubi lossing their bodyguard status as well. I loved the idea of a highly trained aspect like force that was your only trusted unit in your Kabal, if you were paid up to date ofc Wink Their cold exterior was in stark contrast to every other Dark Eldar's excitement and craziness, and the idea of them marching to battle silence while surrounded by whooping and yelling Warriors made me giggle with glee Razz. Now they are just some crazed killers that are kept under wraps by their Aspect training. Heh, guess Ill have to keep it alive in my fluff then Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Wed Sep 21 2011, 18:08

Spanna uv Komor-AAAGH! wrote:
I hate doing this, but I think you are over-reacting to the Vect story.
If I'm not allowed to overreact, who is. Maybe you're undereacting? Wink

Spanna uv Komor-AAAGH! wrote:
Second, I have a way of reading that fluff to make it considerably more palatable. The story specifically states that the siege of the Forgehammer before the Space Marine invasion took sixteen days. Everything else? Takes minutes.
That would make it less obnoxious.

@Shadow - they still make note of the Incubi as disciplined bodyguards in the current fluff (and as street police...but...) do you think they really backed away from that in any place in particular? I agree with you about the demystifying of Vect though.
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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Wed Sep 21 2011, 18:39

Thor665 wrote:
@Shadow - they still make note of the Incubi as disciplined bodyguards in the current fluff (and as street police...but...) do you think they really backed away from that in any place in particular? I agree with you about the demystifying of Vect though.

Yah, its mentioned that they are still trustworthy, but its taken a back seat to Archon outsourcing their bodyguards to other races. What I really think they backed away from was the whole cold faced killers thing. Even Jes came out and said it when they were doing the video logs on creating the codex's look and feel. He said the polearm punisher gave them the look of stoic bodyguards, and his words were along the lines of "no Dark Eldar should be trusted, even if he is paid to do his job." That is why he switched from polearms to the glaives we have today. He said they looked more like a killers tool, not a defenders.

Im guessing the move to push them into more of a black op merc for hire role and out of the bodyguard role was because Jes thought every dark eldar should have that inate urge to kill, and its hard to have a bodyguard that would leave you at the first sight of a worthy battle. Im guessing for fluff reasons Jes thought every Dark Eldar should have an inate urge to kill, and it is shown well with PfP rule, and with Incubi w. murderous assault and Onslaught. From a marketing standpoint, it allowed them to fit in a new unit that was the Archon's bodyguards (but who fields a court anyway Razz )

Im guessing its not so much them losing the bodyguard status that irks me, but them becoming crazed killers. Sure, I like that they follow Khaine (was expected) and sure, the old Scorps followed the path of the killer (before they were the path of the stalker) so it makes sense... esque... But it was something as an oddity that they were so quiet and stoic compared to every other unit in the Dark Eldar Codex. That they mathodically marched across the battlefield, dealing death in quick and in perfect exacution like the Craftworld Aspects. Actually the only time I can remember an Incubi going crazed before the newest codex was the short story of the Archon sicking them against some Scorpions that had escaped capture in Commagorah. If I remember right, even the Archon was horrified at how the Incubi acted so differently when fighting their cousins, and made some comment along the lines of "thank god they are on our side"

[Modded - quote fixed and double post removed]
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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Wed Sep 21 2011, 19:59

What I hate?

Well the thing I hate is the story of the how Malys turned ork genes into toxic waste Crying or Very sad

I know that De posses very weird (or freakish) technology but wasnt it be more efficient to just kill that warboss and just wait when orks were deep in their throats and THEN kill them.

And toxic wastes wouldnt even affect orks because they are partially mushrooms and mushrooms are very resisntance agaisnt toxics confused
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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Wed Sep 21 2011, 21:18

Hmm I like your point about Vect's demistification, should have been left as a mysterious god-like figure who scares the bajaysus outta even all the other Dark Eldar (Dracula in spaaaze)

Marines taking a poop in commaraghs mouth also rankles, In my mind a single chapter or is it just the crew of one ship would not last very long in Commoragh at all , no really would be like a piece of meat in a pirana tank ...

My very least favorite most anger inducing piece/s of fluff are the repeated mentions of the use of incubi tormentors .....wtf are they on the unit ? really it should give them offensive/defensive grenades or something like that. its just flat stupid going to lengths to outline the use and effects of some wargear that really adds to the flavour of a unit then not give it any kind of mechanic, big fat fail , and why does Drazhar the most swiftest and awesome unmatchable of killers have the same WS and I as a plain Archon ? and no invuln ?

I think I feel a rant starting so ima go now .....

ok just a couple more - Dark lances described as being las tech ++ with darkmatter additives in game terms being fail in comparison to a normal lascannon.

and why were the void lances not Ap1 ? everyone and their dog can spam AP1 these days but nooo not one of the most technologically advance races most potent AT guns , and the Void mine has some of the most hyped fluff going for something that is frankly meh .....

The fluff-rules translation is actually a bit crap in the DE book , Lelith is the ultimate 121 combat god , yet she sucks against any character with T4 and a 4++ or better (all of them) but she is good at murdering chaff en masse ? eh ? whut ?

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Wed Sep 21 2011, 23:40

Ilkeäpelimies wrote:
What I hate?

Well the thing I hate is the story of the how Malys turned ork genes into toxic waste Crying or Very sad

I know that De posses very weird (or freakish) technology but wasnt it be more efficient to just kill that warboss and just wait when orks were deep in their throats and THEN kill them.

And toxic wastes wouldnt even affect orks because they are partially mushrooms and mushrooms are very resisntance agaisnt toxics confused

Your forgetting that the DE have acces to the most posionous substances in the galaxy and they make things designed to kill weeds and fungus in this world so use your imagination to what they have in the fictional world of warhammer. I just reread the part your talking about and it says nothing about toxic waste it says toxins anything posionous is considered a toxin.

Now back on topic my least favorite part of the fluff was when malys tore out her own heart huh? Now I have a problem with her managing to do that first off but the fact that she survived and was able to put the laughing gods heart in its place I dunno seems a bit stretched even for the DE

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Thu Sep 22 2011, 00:09

I never ever read the fluff in a codex. But I did do so with the DE, even before realising there was a topic like this.

Worst part was definitely the part when some Tiny version of lizzards, (come on what kind of a name is Salamander >.< ) have no trouble at all when they destroy a part of the dark city. It was written with just to much love for those crappy SM's.

Unless, at one point I misunderstood or missed some piece of fluff, the dark city is... well... dark. We didn't evolve our eye's to night vision standards because of a well lit environment. So please explain me how those SM's could kill us, they couldn't even see it coming. As far as I know SM's don't start with night visions...


loved it how Malys used the ork fleet as a way of bombarding the Imperial front-line.

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Thu Sep 22 2011, 00:12

Dunno, Vects signature weapon seems to be large imperial ships crashed into things ....

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Thu Sep 22 2011, 15:07

Quote :
So please explain me how those SM's could kill us, they couldn't even see it coming. As far as I know SM's don't start with night visions

You need to read some other fluff, SM have night/termo-vision build in helmets....I bet x-rey too. They have Auspex(move-detector) and enchanced sences.....so they have right to see/hear/smell(SW) DE with not much trubble.

I dont like CoA fluff....well I was expecting somthing more bizzare than that.

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Wed Sep 28 2011, 09:11

I was annoyed at the whole "horizontal rain of drop pods" bit from rise of vect. Drop pods can carry 12 guys, the piece said there were almost 500 space marines on the streets. Thats 40 drop pods not really enough to be considered a rain especially once you consider how big the ships are. I think any dark eldar fighter pilot who couldnt avoid one of 40 drop pods would have already died in the jetbike arenas.

Voidmine fluff was pretty annoying as well. Its not even AP1.
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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Wed Sep 28 2011, 16:16

@Skizzik - I suppose there could have been a lot more and a lot got shot down...? But, yeah, I think the whole story could have been done much better, it just makes the faction look weak, which is...usually avoided in Codices.

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PostSubject: Re: Least favorite moment of DE fluff?   Thu Sep 29 2011, 12:46

Ahh, I must be the only one to have thoroughly enjoyed the story then!

For me it really highlights the Dark Eldar's arrogance and aloofness, that they really do take for granted the sanctuary provided for them in Comorraggh.
They have no reason to fear reprisals once they are safely tucked away in the depths of the webway and surely untouchable to the reach of the other mortal races once in Comorragh, like a bunch of mafia hidden away in a speakeasy and having a whale of a time!

They are a piratical race who only fight on their own terms after all, whilst otherwise hiding away and awaiting the oppertune moment to implement their plan of action, that they would be caught off guard by a load of Space Marines thundering about seems pretty reasonable to me?
Besides, the marines were only there as a part of a grander scheme of subterfuge amongst the Dark Eldar themselves which overall, I think, is quite a fitting tale that really reflects they way in which the Dark Eldar go about their business.
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