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 Fortress of Redemption

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Sat Aug 01 2015, 17:44

A) Deep Strike isn't moving. It's just that after Deep Striking, you will count as having moved. (Largely only affecting what shooting attacks you can make.)

B) "Deep Striking is moving" is a common misconception, but even if it were, this would still be legal. A general rule prevents you from moving, which necessitates you having a more specific (and thus overriding) rule in order to do so. Fortunately, the unit has a special rule (Deep Strike, courtesy of the Archon and his Webway Portal) which gives them exactly that capability.


While I do agree that an Imperial Bastion, or an Eagle-phallus cannon would be better, I don't own either of those. What I do own is a Fortress of Redemption. All I'm trying to figure out is how best to make it work.

I can fit up to four units (in addition to the Archon) inside it in Reserve (tragically, I can't see the rules supporting units on the Battlements in Reserve). I had a couple thoughts.

* Wraithguard in the hallway (to use D-scythes out the windows).
* Hellions in the bunker annexes. Their supreme mobility would allow them to boil out of the hatches and assault in the next turn.
* Solitaire in the bunker annexes. (He's just as mobile as the Hellions, and in the turn they Deep Strike, I think he has a higher BS.)
* Fire Dragons in the hallway.
* Hallway packed full of warriors, since up to twelve models can fire out of the windows.

As far as converting it, that's DEFINITELY on the agenda. I picked up a whole slew of spikes, chains, skulls on spikes, skulls on chains, and skulls on spikes on chains for exactly this reason. I'm going to deface all the Imperial iconography and add some DE graffitti.


As to fluff, I think it normally doesn't work like that, but it can. Urien Rakarth pulled a planet through the Webway once. A building doesn't seem like it'd present that much of a challenge.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Sat Aug 01 2015, 18:58

Well in all fairness I wasn't even thinking of the fact that DE stole suns in the past as well. A planet, let alone a building is hardly a problem when you think along those lines.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Sat Aug 01 2015, 20:03

Have to check the rules on buildings and deploying embarked. Can enemies be deployed in the same multipart building? IE Centurions in the hallway and the archon in the tower? Interesting line of thinking, although that may not be legal.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Sun Aug 02 2015, 00:29

Only battle brothers can be deployed in your transports so my question is, does that part of the Vehicle rule communicate over to the building for placing them in reserve within said building?

Space Marines would be Desperate allies, it says that they have all the rules of Allies of convience with the addition of one eye open. So they can't be within 1" and if they are within 6" they have to test or be unable to move, manefest, shoot, run or charge.

So if you can deploy Desperate allies in a building while it is in reserve, as long as they are 1" away from their Desperate allies in the building, I would say that yes they can be in it. Unless there is something more I missed, which is very likely.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Sun Aug 02 2015, 00:50

The building rules do allow enemies to be in adjacent parts of the structures. (The 12" rule would still override, in the case of CTA allies, however.)

Merciless. Just merciless.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Mon Aug 03 2015, 23:55

New strat: the mass WWP Fortress of Redemption! Razz Laughing Twisted Evil
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Tue Aug 04 2015, 00:02

Lol, if I owned more than one I might.

Still trying to figure out what to put in it, though.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Tue Aug 04 2015, 02:28

Lelith hesperax, because our melee champion is the best to pinpoint apocalypse missiles!!
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Tue Aug 04 2015, 04:41

Doesn't matter. The missile silo can't direct fire. It's virtually incapable of drawing LOS from the 'gun' to a target outside its minimum range.
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Tue Aug 04 2015, 12:02

Seems like GW did not leave a loophole for us here:
"Preparing Reserves" from the rules.
Murder she wrote:
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Tue Aug 04 2015, 14:52

Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!
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SERAFF
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Tue Aug 04 2015, 15:30

@Scrz wrote:
Seems like GW did not leave a loophole for us here:
"Preparing Reserves" from the rules.
Murder she wrote:
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

But there is nothing referred to the main question. This quote describes what happens, when there is no place for your units on the table at the beginnging of the game

_________________
My project log Kabal of Blow Blackberry Hammer
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Wed Aug 05 2015, 13:57

It seems you are correct.

How about this then:

Deep Strike and Transports
Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.

never mind,
The entry for the web way portal:
If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

Seems legal then. I can't find a reason not to do this based on RAW. Not that I'm particularly good at reading rules. And since it is made possible by a special rule from the dark eldar codex, GW will never make a FAQ for it.

Never mind if it is a good tactic or not, I am going to do this just because I can.
Is there a specail rule for the fortress that allows jump infantry to be embarked? I don't have the dataslate for it.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Wed Aug 05 2015, 15:11

Fortress of redemption: The best and coolest way to deliver 3 full grot squads. Twisted Evil
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Wed Aug 05 2015, 17:21

I would have to look again, Scrz, but I swear something somewhere lets jump infantry into the building. I'll try to track it down tonight.

@dumpeal: You could get 24 grots total in there. Could be sweet. (Two grotesqueries even, now that I think of it...)
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Wed Aug 05 2015, 17:41

I talked about it with my friends and we agreed that it isn't possible, because it can't move after deployment.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Wed Aug 05 2015, 20:31

That's cool. It's wrong because deep striking isn't moving, and an IC with a web way portal confers deep strike on any vehicle it is embarked inside, and buildings are treated as vehicles for the purposes of embarking, but all that really matters is how someones core group actually plays after all.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Wed Aug 05 2015, 22:01

In prepare reserves (I've got the German rule book) it's said that units that can't move after deployment count as destroyed when they are placed in Reserve.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Wed Aug 05 2015, 22:07

Mine (english) doesn't. It says they are destroyed if they can not be DEPLOYED. Web way portal grants them deepstrike. Deepstrike grants a method for deployment. Neither deepstrike nor the arriving from reserves subsection of reserves refers to deployment as a form of movement.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Wed Aug 05 2015, 23:06

@CptMetal wrote:
In prepare reserves (I've got the German rule book) it's said that units that can't move after deployment count as destroyed when they are placed in Reserve.

Both Drop Pods and Necron Gauss Pylons cannot move after deployment, and possess the Deep Strike rules. If an opponent placed them in Reserve would you demand he destroy them? Clearly not.

I've already asked once, but I'm going to try asking nicely again: please don't discuss the rules of whether this is legal any further. If you want to talk about which units are legal, or how other rules interact with this tactic, that's fine. However, this thread is in the tactics forum, not the rules forum. At this point, I'm satisfied that the rules support Deep Striking a fortification. If you really feel the need to discuss the situation further, then please start a separate thread in the appropriate forum.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Thu Aug 06 2015, 00:28

Jump infantry are Bulky, so they can get in if you're willing to pay the price in room.

Fun fact: Bikes are Very Bulky, so you could fill the thing with Reavers or Shining Spears at 1/5th normal capacity. *Evil Grin*
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Fortress of Redemption   Thu Aug 06 2015, 03:22

Alas, no bikes.  Jump and Jet yes, according to the subsection on Entering & Exiting Buildings.  (Normally only base Infantry can get into transports, but Jump/Jet infantry are given an exception.)

Hellions might be fun, since they can exit through the battlements directly down to the ground, and then still assault because of the Repel the Invader rule.
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