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Shados
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PostSubject: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Jul 30 2015, 01:45

Hello all,
I'm Shados, I live in the US. I'm thinking of starting on Dark Eldar.

Prior I had played crons, but began to get kind of bored and slightly annoyed at the massive array of leadbelcher minis with cold soulless eyes.
So, I began looking into the DE.
I have a 7th Ed codex and have looked into the DE, but am not quite sure where to start.

However, I need help creating a starting list for my initial purchase. (I'm one of those squirrel types who enjoys having boxes upon boxes at a time.)

I have been looking at the models and at this point am thinking of going with a versatile type army, with good firepower yet still very lethal in CQC, so I'm thinking of buying an archon, two venoms, and bunch of boxes each of wyches and Kabalite warriors, all packed in raiders.

A big influence in me choosing these boxes is mainly because wyches are melee focused and KW are shooty, and the fact that they look really, really awesome.

However, I'm not exactly sure if that's a wise build to start with. And a lot of it is based on my reasoning that Necrons in Ghost Arks is good so KW/Wyches in raiders must be good too. tongue

So, I am hoping you far more experienced players can recommend a good 1,000 or 1,500 pt list for me so I can order them and get to painting.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Jul 30 2015, 02:24

Warriors in raiders vs warriors in venoms is a debate that will rage eternally.

Wyches are abysmal in this edition, do NOT pick them up.

Here's a breakdown of my own (subjective) opinion on what's good and what's not:

Optimal Choices (If I leave these units out of a list, I feel like I'm missing out on something.)
HQ- None
Troops- Warriors in Venoms
Elites- Grotesques
Fast Attack- Reavers, Venoms, Scourges
Heavy Support- None
Formations- Scalpel Squadron, Grotesquerie

Reasonable Choices (Useful.  I'm not going to cry if I can't take them, but I might still take them.)
HQ- All
Troops- Warriors in Raiders
Elites- Trueborn, Mandrakes, Incubi
Fast Attack- Raiders
Heavy Support- Talos Engines, Ravagers
Formations- Raiding Party, Scarlet Epicureans, Corpsethief Claw, Dark Artisan

Sub-par choices (If I have to take these, I'm handicapping myself.)
HQ- None.
Troops- Wyches
Elites- Bloodbrides, Wracks
Fast Attack- Beast packs, Hellions
Heavy Support- Voidraven Bombers, Cronos Engines
Formations- Covenite Fleshcorps


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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Jul 30 2015, 02:30

Wyches suck at close combat, don't take them.

Kabalite warriors are at best meh at shooting. don't rely on them. Get two 5 man squads and stick them in venoms for troops choices.

Don't touch voidravens, they suck. Don't touch hellions, they suck. Don't touch wracks, they suck. Don't touch bloodbrides, they suck. Ravagers don't suck exactly, but they're not much good. Razorwings are bad at their job but are practically our only AA.

look at Reavers, Grotesques, and Scourges. They're all fine. Trueborn are also cool when used well. Incubi are fair.

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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Jul 30 2015, 04:24

Yeah pretty much the comments above hit the nail on the head - I'm a big big fan of Warriors in Raiders, esp when fighting fast moving assault units - Daemons, Jetbikes, etc but Venoms do have their place - range is awesome and you can squeeze in quite a few and load up on fire power that way.

As for Anti Tank you can't go wrong with Scourge or Ravagers to start with. There are other ways (Reavers Hammer of Wrath, Talos, etc)

And for CC I highly recommend Grotesques. A well positioned Grotesque unit (or two) will give your opponent a real headache!! I love 'em at the moment.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Jul 30 2015, 07:23

But don't buy grotesques from Games Workshop! There is only one model and is ridiculously expensive. Some buy trolls, I bought vampire crypt horrors and added the talos mask and injectors at the back to create my grotesques. If you use two squads, add an Haemonculus and use the coven formation grotesquerie. It's awesome in close combat. But remember to put them into Raider when possible.

When they say HQ none, they are talking about using a ten point court of the Archon model as HQ. Yes. That's possible.

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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Jul 30 2015, 10:27

CptMetal wrote:
But don't buy grotesques from Games Workshop! There is only one model and is ridiculously expensive. Some buy trolls, I bought vampire crypt horrors and added the talos mask and injectors at the back to create my grotesques.

Yes very good point - I am in the process of using Crypt Horrors with Talos bits to make mine - very easy conversion!

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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Jul 30 2015, 12:13

I'm building my own DE army right now. I've started with a DE Battleforce box that I got discounted off Ebay. If you can do the same it's well worth it. You get 15 Wyches, 10 Kabalites, 6 Reavers, 5 Scourge, 1 Ravager, 1 Raider and 1 Venom all of which you'll use bar the Wyches. All the non-troop choices are great units that you want in your army if you can squeeze them in. The Kabalites are essential and are decent troops with their poison shots. Don't bother taking Wyches. They're pretty poor. Outside of a few people using them occasionally as micro-tar pits they have no place a list as they have no tactical value. where they have been used as micro-tar pits I doubt the player was running a completely competitive list (looking at Skari's use of them hear).

The advantage of having the Battleforce is getting a pretty solid force at a discounted price. Throw in a HQ and you're good to go for small points games. I'd however recommend converting the Wyches into something else. They're gorgeous models, better looking that the Kabalites, they're just functionally poor on the table. Personally I want a lot of birdmen in my army so I'm looking to pick up a box of Tyranid Gargoyles to strip the wings off. 10 wings in that box, throw them on Wych bodies with their dynamic poses and I think they'd make good Scourge. So I'm getting good value out of the already discounted box.

To get your army up to 1500pts and to get it working beyond minimal tabletop effectiveness you're gonna need transports. People have their preferences between going Venom-spam, Raider-spam or taking a good mix of both but however you do it you will want 4-6 transports in a 1500pt list. If you're taking footslogging DE troops then you're doing it wrong! Everything needs a transport. A battleforce will give you 2 but you need to source the rest. Transports are probably a priority purchase after you get your core units.

What you probably want as a core force is:

1 HQ (whichever flavour you prefer)
10-30 Kabalite Warriors (depending on if you go MSU or Gunboats with your troops)
2-3 Fast Attack squads (Reavers, Scourge, Razorwings, Beast Packs - avoid Hellions)
1-2 Ravagers
4-6 Venoms/Raiders to taste. Make sure everything is in a transport.

From there you can diversify to taste. You can look at Coven units to thicken out your force. Dark Artisan and Grotesquerie formations are great and the easiest places to start. As mentioned above convert your own Grots, not only will it be cheaper than buying the actual models but they'll look more individual to your style. If you're taking Grots take them from the Coven book, that way they get the awesome "combat drugs" from that book.

If you want more Kabal units then you can move up to having 3 Ravagers (Void Ravens are over-priced). Don't take pain engine outside of Coven formations or force organization. They're weaker than their Coven counterparts. You can add more Reaver/Scourge/Razorwing/Beast Packs as needed to fill out your list. You might want to consider adding Incubi for solid CC, they're best taken in small squads or 4-5 in Venoms. A Court of the Archon can be useful if you build it into your tactics. Extra HQ's are always useful but you should build them into your strategy because they're not amazing and auto-choices as they are in some other factions. And don't forget to keep buying those transports!

That's about all I can think of. Hope this gives you some direction Smile

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Viceroi_Corvenis
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 02:39

I am also new to DE, and I have seen people say you can take something from the Court of the Archon as the HQ. How is this possible? Is there errata or an FAQ that GW put out? I have the 7E codex, and it appears that the Retainers rule prohibits just that. What do I cite to be able to do this?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 03:06

The Court of the Archon is an HQ choice, and the Realspace Raiders, Combined Arms, and Allied detachments all require a single HQ. Thus, you may take a Court of the Archon (as a single model if desired) to fill that slot.

Retainers just allows you to get a Court that doesn't take up an HQ slot, if you also took an Archon.
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Viceroi_Corvenis
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 04:19

Right, but has GW published errata or an FAQ stating just that? I need to cite something other than just popular opinion of some people online. How do I argue that it can be done to local rules lawyers and tournament organizers?

The argument, here in my area, against is that the wording of Retainers "For each Archon" means that you need to take an Archon to take a court. How do I dispute that?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 04:53

By reading them the remainder of the rule? The rule is quite clear that the 'for each archon' clause only unlocks the slotless variant of the unit.

40k is a permissive rules set, meaning you cannot do things unless you have permission. Once you have permission, you may do that thing unless specifically restricted by a further rule. Court of the Archon is an HQ, therefore you have permission to take it as an HQ selection. There are no rules which restrict you to ONLY being able to take it if you have an Archon. At that point, the onus is not on you to cite a rule allowing it (the rules already do), but on them to cite a rule specifically disallowing it.

Furthermore, the two major tournament FAQs (ETC and ITC) both specifically address this issue and come down on the side of yes, yes you can do that.

Hope that helps. Very Happy
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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 07:56

It's essentially the same as being able to take Drop Pods as Fast Attack choices. Just because they can be taken as Dedicated Transports doesn't stop them being a Fast Attack choice. In the same logic, just because a Court can be taken as Retainers doesn't stop the fact that they still have the HQ icon at the top of their dataslate, and thus are a HQ unit.

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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 10:54

It looks like everything has already been mentioned, so I will make some points that I wish I knew about when I started;

- Heavy weapons on warriors are rarely used, you are better off without them,
- Sybarites are rarely used, so stay clear of any warriors with power swords,
- use the above mentioned sword for you Archon, since the other weaponry is mediocre (huskblade),
- Speaking of the Archon, you don't have to buy the model seperately. There are a lot of ways to kitbash a great looking Archon buy using leftover bits,
- Save you blasters and shredders for when you want to make blaster trueborn,
- Magnetize! One of my biggest regrets is that almost everything has a dark lance, and after every game I think about how useful a disintegrator canon could be against certain armies,
- I don't think this can be said often enough, so here it goes; stay away from wyches and helions,
- As a rule, you want to have more venoms in you collection than raiders. I currently have six raiders and three venoms, yet rarely play with more than three raiders and always wish for an extra venom,
- If you are going for scourge, pick up two boxes and make four haywire and four heat lance models,
- If you are going for reavers, always pick cluster caltrops over the other option (don't even remember the name). There's no real winner between the heat lance and the blaster here, so pick whichever, or none at all.
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spellcheck2001
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 11:11

+1 to everything said above.

As an aside playing Dark Elsar is 40k on hard mode. You will lose a lot when you start, as they are incredibly unforgiving to play and have some massive weaknesses. However as you become more tactically astute and know how your army functions you will discover they are a very fun and tactical army to use. Top tier? Definately not but they are so much fun and have some of the best models GW has released so far. All I can say is enjoy your games, win or lose, and this hobby will be much more rewarding for you Smile

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Viceroi_Corvenis
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 14:00

Well said, and thank you. I have found that where most people fail when playing DE is that they attempt to wage symetrical war as opposed to asymetrical warfare. Also, I have to disagree about Wyches, when used in combination with certain other units, they are quite effective. The only use I have found for Hellions is as a disruptive force, where I hold 20 of them in reserve and deepstrike them, shoot a unit to smithereens, and force my opponent to rethink his targeting priorities.

Check my posts in the Army List section. I am still collecting Reavers to make the first list, but the second list has defeated Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Tau so far. Got to say, the Tau victory was the most satisfying. I charged that cheese-monger's Riptide with a unit of wyches with a Haemonculus and a Succubus, and 2 units of 6 Reavers each with 2 Cluster Caltrops. The idiot chose to overwatch the Wyches, who still made it in anyway. I got lots and lots of Rending Hammer of Wrath with the huge base that thing sits on. After that, it was the poison wounds from the Succubus' Agonizer, and the Scissorhand on the Haemonculus that striped off his last 2 wounds. Then it was a litany of "well, I would have won if..." as we were packing up. Our local Tau guy is so much fun to beat.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 14:05

Viceroi_Corvenis wrote:
Got to say, the Tau victory was the most satisfying. I charged that cheese-monger's Riptide with a unit of wyches with a Haemonculus and a Succubus, and 2 units of 6 Reavers each with 2 Cluster Caltrops.

To be fair, that's probably 500+ points of melee units charging a ~200 point shooty unit. I'd be pretty embarrassed if they didn't manage to beat it!

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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 14:22

Yeah, I reckon the reavers alone could have done it. Hit & Run and just HoW again next turn. Plus it means they are tied in combat and can't be shot at.
Still though, it's nice to see Wyches in action.
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Blackfel
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 19:41

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with Chickendinner about venoms and raiders. Choosing which one you use is a matter of personal preference, and you have to consider your local meta when you decide which works for you. A venom can lay down 12 poisoned shots with AP5, which will cause a large number of wounds on infantry, monstrous creatures, and flying monsters, but against vehicles they're utterly worthless. Before the new Space Marine codex was released, vehicles really weren't a concern. But in the new meta, with more and more players fielding Battle Companies with 12 "free" rhinos, venoms, or drop pods, it's becoming more important than ever to find effective ways to deal with armor. I've found that spamming naked raiders using the basic disintegrator cannons with three S5/AP2 shots can actually be more effective than flooding the field with venoms. And, they're cheaper points-wise if you don't add any upgrades...which is the MSU ideal.


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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 20:24

But in that case, shouldn't you put ten dudes in the Raider or do you think five are sufficient?

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Blackfel
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 21:57

Depends on how deep your pockets are! In an ideal MSU army list, you would want to field the minimum number of Kabalites (5 + Blaster) in either the venom or the raider. A naked raider is 55 points with no other upgrades truly necessary, while the venom is 55 + 10 for the splinter cannon upgrade, which is pretty much a mandatory upgrade. If you want to beef up the unit of Kabalites in a raider, you can, but then you should strongly consider taking splinter racks to maximize their splinter rifle shots. Any time you have a chance to purchase an item of wargear or an upgrade that provides a reroll of some kind, it's worth considering. If you do decide to take splinter racks, however, you should leave the blaster at home and take a splinter cannon instead, then think about upgrading your disintegrator to a dark lance. Try to crack open your opponent's transports with the lance, then hose the passengers down with an avalanche of splinters.

So, with an MSU build in mind, prices are as follows:

5 Kabalite Warriors in Raider, with Blaster: 110 points

5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom, with Blaster and Splinter Cannon: 120 points.

10 Kabalite Warriors in Raider, with Splinter Cannon, Splinter Racks, Dark Lance: 170 Points

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Viceroi_Corvenis
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 23:31

To Adhamar, we are Dark Eldar, since when do care give a damn about "fair"?!

Yeah, MSU is the way to go! Force your opponent to make difficult targeting decisions, then have the rest of your force make him pay! I actually like Ravagers with either 3 Dark Lances or 2 DLs and a Disintegrator Cannon. The latter build allows you to move 12" and fire the 2 DLs at BS4 and snap-fire the Disi. It depends on how mobile you want your Ravagers to be.

How about a Raider with Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons and Splinter Racks? Or an Archon w/ WWP and 9 Sslyth in a Raider with Splinter Racks? Are Deep Stiking Hellions worth it?

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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 27 2015, 23:33

Blackfel wrote:
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with Chickendinner about venoms and raiders.[...] I've found that spamming naked raiders using the basic disintegrator cannons with three S5/AP2 shots can actually be more effective than flooding the field with venoms. And, they're cheaper points-wise if you don't add any upgrades...which is the MSU ideal.

You see, I would agree with you, but then have to point you to my other issue, the one with 5/6 of my raiders having dark lances Sad

But yes, I have recently had some very similar thoughts. Slowly the dissie canon is becoming more and more relevant as the meta converges towards high armour "elite" units (termies, centurions, light armoured vehicles, even eldar bikes have a great save). I guess as long as you are not facing orks or tyranids dissie cannons are preferable over splinter weapons?

At the same time, however, multiple venom squads with blasters is still a very potent build.
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thenick18
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 28 2015, 11:40

For the MSU style, I never take the splinter cannon on my kabalites. A snap shooting splinter cannon is 4 str 6 shots, 6s to hit, plus only 18" range. If you don't add in the blaster, then just take another splinter rifle. Being DE, you'll always be moving, so that splinter cannon is always snap shooting as it is a heavy weapon.
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Tursarius
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 28 2015, 11:47

thenick18 wrote:
For the MSU style, I never take the splinter cannon on my kabalites. A snap shooting splinter cannon is 4 str 6 shots, 6s to hit, plus only  18" range. If you don't add in the blaster, then just take another splinter rifle. Being DE, you'll always be moving, so that splinter cannon is always snap shooting as it is a heavy weapon.

Splinter cannon is SALVO so that is 4 shots at 18" @ full BS when moving or 6 at 36" stationary. Much better than a rifle.
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thenick18
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PostSubject: Re: Starting Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 28 2015, 11:53

18" range on a splinter weapon doesn't synergize well with 24" on the remaining splinter weapons. If you're going to be within 18" you're better off with a blaster for the added punch.

I'll revisit the salvo, but my understanding is that its still a heavy weapon, salvo is the fire mode. Being that it is a heavy weapon, and the infantry passengers count as moving when embarked, it will be fired with snap shots. Like I previously mentioned, I rarely if ever take the cannons on my infantry so I may have the profile mixed up.



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