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 Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment

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Hekatrix


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PostSubject: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Sun Jul 26 2015, 22:12

Just thinking about the Null Deployment idea (because I used to love it in 5th) and now our chances of coming on T2/T3 are considerably better in 7th I was wondering how else this could be done, other than using the Scalpel Squadron.

Our blessed Mandrakes (Infiltrators) would, in theory allow us to Null Deploy.

Cheaper than Scalpel Squadron, Mandrakes have their great cover save and two MSU units could act as a mechanism to make the opponent split up his army to deal with them. Could infiltrate them onto objectives so decent for first turn maelstrom, pending cards drawn of course.

Worth a try....

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Sun Jul 26 2015, 22:16

Sure is! You can even combine the two for a more durable first turn force. I was a Mandrake hater until I tried them recently in an escalation league. They are quite useful, and dirt cheap.
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Hekatrix


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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Sun Jul 26 2015, 22:25

The obvious dangers I can think of initially are Drop Pod armies, smart missile systems, fast moving flamers (Dreadknights).

Long range Ignores Cover shooting isn't an issue if you hide them out of LoS.....

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Sun Jul 26 2015, 23:07

The great advantage of Null Deployment is that you don't have to do it. If you face an army with multiple Dreadknights, you can choose to start everything on the table if that's going to benefit you. (Likewise with Drop Pods, although of the pods dont have Ignores Cover in them the Mandrakes are probably going to skate anyway...)

I don't think I'd usually let two three man squads of 'drakes be my ENTIRE anchor (I'd probably prefer to pair them with a Scalpel), but I think the strategies complement one another nicely.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Mon Jul 27 2015, 00:32

It can definitely work, I run two five strong squads in my list these days and now wouldn't leave home without them. I mainly use them for objective grabbing early on, but they do tend to survive for quite a long time simply because they're often out by themselves and whatever people would dedicate to get rid of them is inefficient for the job. I think they're cruelly overlooked too often!

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Mon Jul 27 2015, 09:48

They are extremely meta dependant. It's very rare I don't play against someone with a good lump of ignore cover weapons. Mandrakes just die instantly with no saves at my local club.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Mon Jul 27 2015, 09:54

How much ignore cover stuff do Space Marines have?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Mon Jul 27 2015, 10:01

@CptMetal wrote:
How much ignore cover stuff do Space Marines have?

Flamers on pretty much anything that wants one?

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Mon Jul 27 2015, 11:23

Tig giving Ignore Cover to any unit he wants is pretty common too.
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lelith
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Mon Jul 27 2015, 21:35

@Hellstrom wrote:
They are extremely meta dependant.  It's very rare I don't play against someone with a good lump of ignore cover weapons.  Mandrakes just die instantly with no saves at my local club.

Agreed. Mandrakes cannot do their job in my area too.

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Tue Jul 28 2015, 05:18

@1++ wrote:
Just thinking about the Null Deployment idea (because I used to love it in 5th) and now our chances of coming on T2/T3 are considerably better in 7th I was wondering how else this could be done, other than using the Scalpel Squadron.

Our blessed Mandrakes (Infiltrators) would, in theory allow us to Null Deploy.

Cheaper than Scalpel Squadron, Mandrakes have their great cover save and two MSU units could act as a mechanism to make the opponent split up his army to deal with them. Could infiltrate them onto objectives so decent for first turn maelstrom, pending cards drawn of course.

Worth a try....
I mentioned something like this in another thread only a little different. I don't actually null deploy, what I do is more of a 'null their weapons' deployment, but similar result.

Basically in a well defined meta certain armies are predictable where we are not. What we are is overlooked in the food chain of list design and largely immune to grav which is huge. Plus we have all the right tools to crush meq of every flavor including eldar.

Anyway the strategy hinges on extreme MSU via mandrakes and multiple single beastmaster models, currently clawed fiends but I see a case for other combos possibly. Plus something durable to non cover ignoring like reavers or grots. The rest is anti meq and anti tank in the form of disis and melta. Reserve all the mech and melta and deploy to counter their arrival in cover with your MSU. Present more targets then they can destroy. Then bring on massed disi cannons and assault with whats left on the board.

Works vs scatbikes too since one of the main factors is who forces jinks first. I've found fiends beat windriders in combat btw which is a nice selling point. Send them hunting and they will be forced to shoot them at some point or lose to 30 pt beasts. Beasts over MSU bikes atm just because they are inherently more durable and combat capable for slightly cheaper although I have not tried massed MSU reavers yet tbh. Still feeling this strategy out.

At ignores cover- if they are used in MSU its very hard to trade profitably with 30-36 pt units even considering ignores cover. Nids might hang but not much else could without specifically tailoring.
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Hekatrix


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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Tue Jul 28 2015, 08:20

I dig your groove Brom! So basically deploying say 2 MSU Mandrake units plus up to 6 single Beast models should allow us to hold out the enemy until our force arrives T2. I like the idea of Beasts as they are fast and can get away from most things but I see the overall point; have too many things for your opponent to deal with.....

EDIT: could do this on the cheap and field 6 individual Beastmasters and 1/2 Lhamaean.....this may also encourage your enemy to make his way closer to your board edge, putting his units in our rapid fire range......ouch

EDIT EDIT: actually no the Mandrakes allow you to deploy outside your DZ so against Drop Pod armies it may work

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Tue Jul 28 2015, 16:18

I like the idea, but you are almost guaranteeing you will give away first blood with this tactic.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Tue Jul 28 2015, 16:21

Quote :
I dig your groove Brom! So basically deploying say 2 MSU Mandrake units plus up to 6 single Beast models should allow us to hold out the enemy until our force arrives T2. I like the idea of Beasts as they are fast and can get away from most things but I see the overall point; have too many things for your opponent to deal with.....

EDIT: could do this on the cheap and field 6 individual Beastmasters and 1/2 Lhamaean.....this may also encourage your enemy to make his way closer to your board edge, putting his units in our rapid fire range......ouch

EDIT EDIT: actually no the Mandrakes allow you to deploy outside your DZ so against Drop Pod armies it may work

Thanks man and yea basically although I'm not opposed to deploying warriors or anything else in that method and use the warriors and/or other units as bubble wrap. Its really just designed around our typical shell of rides + dudes but with thought towards alpha strikes and tooled for anti meq duty. Infiltrators give the chance to push back scout armies if needed and reduce LZs for pods. Beasts can do the same if they give you 1st turn which many will. Theres a point of diminishing return on beasts since their main draw over simply taking more skimmers is lower cost and immunity to grav. And to a lesser extent cc bully ability against certain units.

The first time this really worked for me was years back I was playing mechanized SW against a DP army and on a whim I reserved all my mech including 2 vindis and deployed all the marines spread. His pods came on did minimal damage with predominantly anti tank weaponry and bolters (this was a previous edition). I counter struck and destroyed most of his forces then went on the offensive. Its a good solid strategy but not commonly employed that I'm aware of for whatever reason. People tend to look to the extremes instead I guess.

Quote :
I like the idea, but you are almost guaranteeing you will give away first blood with this tactic.
No your right, but only in the instances where that is the least of your worries. In return you are going for objectives and tabling. Against non reserve all strategies I feel this approach is still strong because its designed to start on the board just as easily.. if say you go first and they deploy normallly.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Tue Jul 28 2015, 16:41

Ok to take this out of the abstract heres a sample of what I'm talking about, taken to the extreme which is not usually my preference but for the sake of academics lets go there.

Keep in mind this approach possibly throws away some matches to gain traction against some of the more common competitive strategies out there. Namely bike centric lists and marines. It won't fair as well against full on mechanized ground forces for example, but it does have inherent immunity to shenanigans meant for higher value targets like say wwp scytheguard or deathstars without incredible splitfire ability like Tau or TWC stars (split forces) and it has game in anything resembling maelstrom.

Playing the spoiler role:

HQ
court of the archon, 1 medusae 25
court of the archon, 1 medusae 25

ELITES
3 mandrakes 36
3 mandrakes 36
3 mandrakes 36

TROOPS
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc 105
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc 105
5 warriors, raider- dc, cs 100
5 warriors 40

FA
6 reavers, arena champ, 2 caltrops, 2 hl 156 Warlord
6 reavers, 2 caltrops 126
5 scourges 4 hl 120
5 scourges 4 hl 120
5 scourges 4 hl 120
1 beastmasters, clawed fiend 30
1 beastmasters, clawed fiend 30
1 beastmasters, clawed fiend 30
1 beastmasters, clawed fiend 30
1 beastmasters, clawed fiend 30
raider dc 55
raider dc 55

HS
ravager, disi cannons 110
ravager, disi cannons 110
ravager, disi cannons 110
ravager, disi cannons 110

TOTAL- 1850
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Tue Jul 28 2015, 20:22

With 2 realspace detachments, you won't have obj sec units. Which may be troublesome if you already give away first blood.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Wed Jul 29 2015, 02:46

@dumpeal wrote:
With 2 realspace detachments, you won't have obj sec units. Which may be troublesome if you already give away first blood.
That is actually a very valid point since Obsec has won me games with DE and other armies.

That said, at least with DE I would think its pretty rare that we're not taking RSR anyway. We just don't do obsec well enough to justify not having access to more fast attack. Or maybe thats just me IDK. First blood isn't always given up either. We can take it just fine if opportunity permits and i usually prioritize that highest as a personal rule. Its mostly against DS heavy forces where its hard to avoid but then the bigger concern is simply not getting tabled or crippled.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes allowing.....Null Deployment   Wed Jul 29 2015, 03:20

I would take 2 lameans with a raider, to free 2 fast slots, and maybe remove a scourge unit. This would allow a CAD.
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