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 The "Feel" of Dark Eldar

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 02:27

I may be insane, but I like the PfP table as it is. Maybe a different table for coven, Kabal, and cult units, but other than that I wouldn't really like a big change.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 02:55

I realize I probably came off as hating the dark eldar PFP table, but I don't.  I just feel like the overall design under 7th edition is muddled to the point of being ineffective.  Since wyches have basically disappeared, and kabalites simply don't assault; the idea of getting furious charge and rage as a racial bonus seems like a terrible waste in an edition where waste becomes more and more painful by the release.
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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 03:07

@Azdrubael wrote:

The more pain tokens you have in the pool, the more defensive buffs you get:

That's an excellent concept. I really like this. It reminds me of the Blood Tithe rule, but there's no drawback to sitting on Pain Points. It provides an immediate stimulus, which the Dark Eldar should enjoy, hehe
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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 03:22

@stilgar27 wrote:
1) Any model with the fleet rule may also charge after it has run (fleet reroll on all 3d6)
2) Any model with the fleet rule are considered relentless while embarked and for the purposes of charging (heavy weapons still snap fire if you moved on foot) 2.5) Alternatively, replacing splinter rifles across the board with shard carbines (which look very similar) might be a better fit.
3) All models with the fleet rule also carry the hit and run, and hammer of wrath rules, make the HOW rending for good measure.  (Back in the 3rd edition fluff they claimed the dark eldar's increased combat ability came in large part from all the blades and spikes on their armor.  We have basically been wearing blade-vains all this time people!)
4) Kabalite warriors need assault grenades (3 point drooling meat-shield cultists get assault grenades, but technologically sophisticated millenniums old mercenary raiders don't? makes sense!)

These rules could be added via PFP or just from the get-go.  Combined they would lead to an infuriatingly fast and potentially deadly melee force versus most enemies.

I disagree completely on #4, since I think Warriors should be all dakka and no choppa, which fits with the overall theme Eldar-race troops being highly effective in a narrow focus. As a trade off, though, I'd buff Wyches and Incubi somewhat, giving us a set of Melee-focused troops to defend our Warriors.

Still, I do like the idea of using the Pain Pool concept discussed earlier to allow the Player to purchase things like Charge after Run and (especially) army-wide Adamantium Will.

@stilgar27 wrote:
Talos and chronos of course need to be type Jump monstrous creatures, because name me another model that comes on a flying base and can't move more than 6" or deep strike.

Leaping Talos doesn't exactly fit the idiom, don't you think? Unfortunately I can't think of anything to do with Talos and Chronos because they're clearly too big to fit in a transport (or maybe if they were Very Bulky? I don't think MCs can get into transports ever, though). And the fluff for the Talos and Chronos is that they float slowly over the field doing various evil things. So they shouldn't be fast, either... Which is why most people I know drop them in with WWP, which seems thematically appropriate as well.

I suppose we could give them something like a 5++ against ranged but that lacks elegance.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 03:28

I'd suggest that letting the Talos and Chronos either have a webway portal option or else let them outflank. Either of these will help them close with the enemy before getting shot to pieces.

I don't agree that Warriors should be all dakka, they should be our all-rounder unit like guardians for eldar. Make trueborn ranged focused.
What I do agree with is that our specialists should feel specialized. Our melee guys and gals should feel really good in melee at the expense of ranged staying power (rather than feeling craptastic in melee at the expense of ranged staying power). Our ranged guys should be able to put out crippling firepower, not find themselves outgunned by imperial guardsmen.
We need our specialists to be able to do the job they've, you know, specialized in.
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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 03:36

Another question to you guys, specifically about the battlefield presence of Vect:

What kind of role, in an abstract sense, should Asdrubael Vect have?
To be somewhat specific, should he be a melee HQ-killing beatstick? Should he buff units but be essentially useless in combat? Should he be a long-range damage-dealer? Should his main offensive ability come from his Tantalus?

In a way, should Vect be the HQ that everybody wants to get their hands on, or should he be the one everyone runs from?

Edited out Bold Red text as it is reserved for moderative action. Cheers - Cavash
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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 03:38

@FuelDrop wrote:

What I do agree with is that our specialists should feel specialized. Our melee guys and gals should feel really good in melee at the expense of ranged staying power (rather than feeling craptastic in melee at the expense of ranged staying power). Our ranged guys should be able to put out crippling firepower, not find themselves outgunned by imperial guardsmen.

Yup. Specialized is the way to go. These ain't Marines.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 03:43

I kind of thought Kabalite Warriors WERE supposed to be equally comfortable in melee and ranged combat. Hence their love of knives, bayonets, and rifle spikes. I'd love them to get +1 Attack from their bladed long arms, like Kroot used to.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 03:47

Vect should be a goddamn Lord of War.

He should provide strategic bonuses to the army as a whole, ride around on his pimp-mobile known as the Dais of Destruction, should be solid in a fight but have unique and awesome bodyguards who provide most of his melee killing power.

Vect himself shouldn't be any better in combat than an incredibly well equipped Archon. He got to where he is today by being smarter than everyone else, not by beating the crap out of them with his bare hands.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 04:21

two things that I think would improve raiders:

Gravitic Accelerator: +6 inches range for splinter weapons for embarked troops.
Stable Firing Platform: Troops embarked on a raider are not considered to have moved for the purposes of firing heavy and salvo weapons unless the raider moves flat out.

Suddenly raider gunships actually have some reason to compete with venoms.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 04:32

@Jimsolo wrote:
I kind of thought Kabalite Warriors WERE supposed to be equally comfortable in melee and ranged combat.  Hence their love of knives, bayonets, and rifle spikes.  I'd love them to get +1 Attack from their bladed long arms, like Kroot used to.

I've always been on that mindset myself.

Looking at our craftworld cousins; who you can easily argue that they are actually overly specialized.  One thing almost all of their infantry (scorpions, storm guardians, guardian defenders, dire avengers, swooping hawks, even weapon batteries) have in common however, is that they have plasma grenades.  In the few case of units without them, they generally don't need them because of mobility (jetpack troops), durability (wraithguard), or a special rule that gives them the same effect (banshees).

It's also not hard to argue that the dark eldar should be much more interested in getting at the enemy in melee than their cousins.  Fluff aside, look at the bayonets, spiked helms, bladed vambraces etc. on these dudes if you doubt they plan on sticking someone up close.  Yet they are as I mentioned before, basically allergic to combat.  You can't even field true born with shardcarbines or pistols anymore, let alone the plasma grenades they used to carry in the last codex.

As for the talos/chronos, you're right that the mobility provided by the jump type is probably over the top.  It's always been hard for me to ignore the model itself however, because it is (and has since like 1998) been a flying model.  I actually converted 2 of the old metal talos into venoms for my scalpel formation, and people think they're the new coven kits... cuz it's flying

You used to be able to mitigate the lack of mobility easily with the old web way portal.  Now I don't know what the solution is, maybe make it jump type but slow and purposeful?  He is after all a floating, lobotomized lunatic.

To get back to the feel of things though. When I started reading dark eldar fluff in the late 90s, I had already played eldar for a few years.  I expected these piratical scum to be a lot like the craftworlders but less restricted by tradition and more willing to experiment.  In my mind I wanted them to be able to mix and match abilities like the modern Autarch does today, and to be a match for the craftworlders every step of the way.

It's really sad that more than 15 years later that has yet to occur.  In fact the gap seems to be even larger than that period of 10+ years when we got no new codex.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 04:51

Can I make yet another suggestion?

Make all poisoned weapons assault weapons.

Make Splinter Rifles Assault 2, 24 inch range.
Make Splinter Carbines Assault 4, 18 inch range.
Make Splinter Pods Assault 3, 18 inch range.
Finally, make the Splinter Cannon Assault 6, 36 inch range.

There is no reason for us to be lugging around weapons that limit our mobility. Our guns are really not very powerful, at least make them mobile! We have far too many options that encourage us to stay put, but we also die if we ever stop moving! We also rely on volume of fire to deal damage, yet our current guns can't output volume fire outside of point blank range!

Our current equipment is counterproductive to our intended playstyle. Who the hell decided that this was a good idea?!?

Also, another vote for making splinter rifles CC weapons that give an extra attack. Make our warriors worthy of the title!

(Note: this gives us an effective threat range for shooting of 36 inches with standard guys. We average one wound per guy if we have splinter racks. For comparison, Tau can have an effective threat range of 42 inches if they push themselves (30 base, 6 for transport move, 6 for disembark move. They can also use markerlights to give bonuses to ballistic skill and get ignores cover at that 42 inches. The difference will remain that we can assault far better than them.)

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 05:55

@FuelDrop wrote:
Can I make yet another suggestion?

Make all poisoned weapons assault weapons.


That's basically the point I was getting at with my 4 convoluted rules on the previous page.  I'm thinking now shard carbines replacing rifles might be the ideal fix though, and bring us pretty well in line with dire avengers in both range and damage.

As for Vect:  the possibilities are near endless.  Even in previous codices he could be fielded either with the Diaz or not, with a bodyguard, or not.  So multiple options would definitely be in order.

If he remained in the ~240 point range, he'd have to bring some serious utility (and certainty) to the table.  For one he'd need eternal warrior, or his toughness 3 behind would get gibbed by scatbikes so fast...  Labyrinthine Cunning would be the default warlord trait of course, and he'd have a 12" fearless bubble around him.  His old "seize the initiative on 4+" would have to go i guess.

Equipment wise I'd give him his shadow field, poisoned (3+) agonizer, plasma and haywire grenades, armor of misery.  Change those old black orby things to an Animus Vitae that he can be used until it sticks, and now he's starting to look worthy of the price.

Preferred Enemy - All
I always loved that, keep that.

Vect is famous for using doubles to lure out enemies.  So one option might be buying a 2nd vect model at the cost of an archon, each is considered an HQ unit and takes up a slot.  Like a normal archon, each can purchase a court to hide in.  Both vects would have a fearless bubble, because no-one would know who the actual vect was.  Both vects would have the identical equipment, but once the double's shadow field burnt out, it'd be obvious who is the real vect (as the double only has 1 wound to make up for the free gear).

As far as the Diaz, or "flying landraider" goes, I think it's time vect upgraded to the Tantalus model. Preferably with a "la cucaracha" horn
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 06:04

When it comes to Asdrubael Vect, I'm of the opinion that he's no great loss.

Vect is, frankly, dull. Does anyone remember Salvatore's dark elf series? I loved Jarlaxle--roguish, outsider, incredibly cunning. (Sliscus/Sathonyx.) I also loved Gromph--scheming, plotting old wizard with the patience his chaotic kin lacked. (Rakarth.) Later in the series, lots of people fell in love with Entreri--a deadly warrior who traded his soul piece by piece to achieve the pinnacle of skill in his murderous craft. (Lelith/Drazhar.) I don't know anyone who liked Matron Baenre.

Like her, Vect works best as a plot device. He's like the Emperor: a keystone that holds his culture together, and provides the plausible excuse we need to suspend our disbelief in such a bizarre society. But that doesn't make him interesting on a personal level, and it doesn't mean I want him on the battlefield.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 11:38

@Jimsolo wrote:
I'd love them to get +1 Attack from their bladed long arms, like Kroot used to.

I have hated Kroot for a long time for exactly this reason.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 12:03

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
I'd love them to get +1 Attack from their bladed long arms, like Kroot used to.

I have hated Kroot for a long time for exactly this reason.

Don't hate Kroot. They're just better than wyches at CC for cheaper.
Orks can make the same claim.

Hate the moron who wrote the codex and decided to take DE being "Playing on hard mode" to heart.

If it helps, think of it as a point handicap. We have to pay maybe 3/4 more than other armies for equivalent units, so when we win it just shows how awesome we are!

Of course Space Marines are now getting a massive chunk of points for free with their FOC, so beating SMs means you're equivalent of beating someone with a 2-to-1 or better points advantage over you. You should feel proud of every victory!
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 15:08

@Jimsolo wrote:
When it comes to Asdrubael Vect, I'm of the opinion that he's no great loss.

Vect is, frankly, dull.  Does anyone remember Salvatore's dark elf series?  I loved Jarlaxle--roguish, outsider, incredibly cunning.  (Sliscus/Sathonyx.)  I also loved Gromph--scheming, plotting old wizard with the patience his chaotic kin lacked.  (Rakarth.)  Later in the series, lots of people fell in love with Entreri--a deadly warrior who traded his soul piece by piece to achieve the pinnacle of skill in his murderous craft. (Lelith/Drazhar.)  I don't know anyone who liked Matron Baenre.

Like her, Vect works best as a plot device.  He's like the Emperor: a keystone that holds his culture together, and provides the plausible excuse we need to suspend our disbelief in such a bizarre society.  But that doesn't make him interesting on a personal level, and it doesn't mean I want him on the battlefield.
Ya makes you wonder if kelly loved that series too.. Sliscus is basically a tribute to jarlaxle.

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 15:09

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
I'd love them to get +1 Attack from their bladed long arms, like Kroot used to.

If it helps, think of it as a point handicap. We have to pay maybe 3/4 more than other armies for equivalent units, so when we win it just shows how awesome we are!

You should feel proud of every victory!

That was my philosophy for a while, against most opponents it made me feel better about beating less experienced players (like my nephew's dark angels).

Against the guys I've been playing against off and on for nearly 20 years however.... there is no real way for us to compete with a modern, effective army.

Random luck of maelstrom?  Sure I guess, but we aren't even really any faster than other armies anymore.  To me it feels a bit more like a game of chance than a game of strategy.

After the pointless last codex dropped, my solution sadly has been just to scrape together replacements for the armies I've gotten rid of over the years.

I shouldn't say "sadly" since modelling conversions is by far my favorite part of the hobby, but my whole point on focusing on the dark eldar was so that I could inch out of the hobby and sell off all my valuable models.


Last edited by stilgar27 on Sat Jul 18 2015, 15:15; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I'll figure out quotes one day)
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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 22:04

@stilgar27 wrote:

That was my philosophy for a while, against most opponents it made me feel better about beating less experienced players (like my nephew's dark angels).

Against the guys I've been playing against off and on for nearly 20 years however.... there is no real way for us to compete with a modern, effective army.

Well, competition doesn't bother me nearly as much as the fact that I don't have fun when I play Dark Eldar. Or, more accurately: I have more fun playing other armies. Like, way more fun. And that's largely because other armies have cool and interesting rules and we don't, at least not really. Power from Pain kinda helps out on that front, but not much. And as it's been mentioned before, it's a paradoxical rule in that it seems to encourage us to turtle up and wait for later turns, when we hit harder, rather than alpha striking early on.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 22:30

@Rotten Deadite wrote:


Well, competition doesn't bother me nearly as much as the fact that I don't have fun when I play Dark Eldar. Or, more accurately: I have more fun playing other armies. Like, way more fun. And that's largely because other armies have cool and interesting rules and we don't

I didn't mean literal competitions by the way, just the ability to put up a good fight.

Anymore I've been playing mostly lost and the damned (or Vraks if you want to call it that), which is technically a forgeworld army so not everyone likes to play against it, but has an amazing variety of army types you can field.

I literally have no vehicles, just chaos spawn, converted (mostly dark vengence) cultists, some $6 WW2 artillery pieces I got off ebay, and some ghetto quad launchers.  With that I can field some amazingly varied armies with widely differing rules.  Whether it's firing on my own troops in melee (cuz screw them), making half the table dangerous terrain, covering it in hundreds of zombies or outflanking mutants, or just calling upon (literally) endless waves of guard level infantry and scoring victory points when I get them killed; I never fail to have fun playing that army regardless of who I'm playing and whether or not I win.

I guess "drop a grot bomb on your opponents head" or "move your vehicles and shoot" just doesn't do it for me anymore. Now i have to paint like 300 cultists though....
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sat Jul 18 2015, 23:00

Quote :

What kind of role, in an abstract sense, should Asdrubael Vect have?

A few examples:
Models in 12" could become fearless as his wrath is worse than just dying on the battlefield
Reserve Manipulation (own and enemy?)
Mid Range vehicle (maybe shriek like effects?)
Maelstrom card manipulation (draw and additional and discard one?)
Mission objective manipulation (move d3 objectives 6" before the game starts)
Deployment manipulation (redeploy x units - even from and in reserve - before turn 1)
Clone - Must be Warlord but never grants any VP for Maelstrom missions that involve killing the Warlord (like Kingslayer for example) and doesn't grant "Slay the Warlord" if killed.


Last edited by Klaivex Charondyr on Sun Jul 19 2015, 07:40; edited 1 time in total
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sun Jul 19 2015, 00:11

That's funny. Even with their subpar rules set, I enjoy DE more than any other army, competitive or otherwise. Even when I'm hamstrung by crazy event restrictions.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sun Jul 19 2015, 07:35

Depends. While I like the models and would love their playstyle, there is nothing they can do what Eldar/Harlies cannot do and both add on a lot of melee/shooting/staying power while maintianing the same playstyle.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sun Jul 19 2015, 15:37

I'm a big fan of the Dark Elder, fluff, models, and "supposed play-style". However, unfortunately in this current iteration, there are other armies that are superior to the DE, in what is supposed to be what the DE are the masters of.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sun Jul 19 2015, 16:36

@thenick18 wrote:
I'm a big fan of the Dark Elder, fluff, models, and "supposed play-style". However, unfortunately in this current iteration, there are other armies that are superior to the DE, in what is supposed to be what the DE are the masters of.

I was just saying in another thread that the new space marine scouts make a superior Venom style MSU army than our codex does.  They're literally the same price (55+40 vs 40+55) with no upgrades.  Essentially you're trading a flickerfield and PFP for much better troops with much better gear (not to mention serious role changing gear options) and the more flexible platform of the landspeeder. It could easily be argued chapter tactics are better than PFP anyway, especially salamanders in this case as all the scouts in cover and in open top transports will attract the flamers.

I'd like to see how some battle reports between those two armies.  I'm going to guess not well for the dark kin.
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