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 The "Feel" of Dark Eldar

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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sun Jul 12 2015, 20:06

@Jimsolo wrote:
I'd be interested in a unique mechanic to showcase Dark Eldar as the scariest, most depraved thing out there: something which ignores or reduces Fearless, Stubborn, or ATSKNF, or imposes reduced penalties on them instead of letting them ignore our effects.

Well, we could do that, but it's an easy and frankly rather dull solution. There's a big difference between creating fear through tactics and strategy, or just giving it a stat. What we could do here is give the Dark Eldar rules that make every army we face genuinely afraid of us. Not because we hit harder than everyone else, or move faster than everyone else, but because we can do unpredictable and unique things that no other army can even approximate.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sun Jul 12 2015, 21:02

Our goal is to capture enemies. And to strike terror the hearts of our enemies. So we need to broaden the Phantasm weaponry and to give us a unique ability to harvest the enemy. Like the corpse thief claw does for example. Maybe being able to spam pinning or panic tests.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sun Jul 12 2015, 23:47

@Rotten Deadite wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
I'd be interested in a unique mechanic to showcase Dark Eldar as the scariest, most depraved thing out there: something which ignores or reduces Fearless, Stubborn, or ATSKNF, or imposes reduced penalties on them instead of letting them ignore our effects.

Well, we could do that, but it's an easy and frankly rather dull solution. There's a big difference between creating fear through tactics and strategy, or just giving it a stat. What we could do here is give the Dark Eldar rules that make every army we face genuinely afraid of us. Not because we hit harder than everyone else, or move faster than everyone else, but because we can do unpredictable and unique things that no other army can even approximate.

Easy, perhaps. Dull? I don't think so.

I think most SM players have no fear of CC, because they are unroutable. Most Stubborn, Fearless, or ATSKNF armies rely on those abilities for a degree of comfort and security. Giving DE the ability to negate (in full or in part) those protections takes away their safety net, which I think would go a long way to imparting the real life uncertainty and apprehension I'd like to see.
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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Sun Jul 12 2015, 23:57

@Jimsolo wrote:

I think most SM players have no fear of CC, because they are unroutable.  Most Stubborn, Fearless, or ATSKNF armies rely on those abilities for a degree of comfort and security.  Giving DE the ability to negate (in full or in part) those protections takes away their safety net, which I think would go a long way to imparting the real life uncertainty and apprehension I'd like to see.

I'll grant you, it'd make a huge statement if the Dark Eldar were the only army who could route the galaxy's mightiest. That alone, to be honest, might even be enough for me to forgive all the Ignores Cover we have to put up with.

But I don't think Games Workshop would do that to an army that features so prominently in their profits. Of course, then again, Dark Eldar aren't a commonly-played army, either.

Oh, just thought of something: Any buff our army gets, the Eldar get. That'd be a problem...

Hey, you know what? Maybe if we come up with anything good, we should suggest the changes as either home-brew or whatever, but center them around an HQ that, when used, won't allow for allies? An HQ for pure Dark Eldar armies? Like oh I don't know Vect.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Mon Jul 13 2015, 00:10

I'd like to expand on our poisoned weapons.
Other races use poison to kill big things. We use poison to disable our enemies with agony so we can pick them up at our convenience.

Make our poison hallucinogenic and give it pinning and soulfright.
Give us more accurate deep striking. This is what we f***ing do, make us good at it!
Give trueborn specialist poisons that they can use to inflict various effects on the enemy.
Let us deep strike some stuff turn 1 (because the Skyhammer Annihilation force scares the crap out of me!)
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Mon Jul 13 2015, 01:15

It doesn't have to be a complete negation. What if rather than being immune to Soulfright weapons, Fearless and ATSKNF models just get bonuses against them?
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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Mon Jul 13 2015, 01:17

@FuelDrop wrote:
I'd like to expand on our poisoned weapons.

That's actually something not many people have brought up on this thread - the strong thematic connection between Dark Eldar and poison weapons. And yes, it does seem like a bit of a wasted opportunity that Kabalite weapons have only one setting: MURDER.
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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Mon Jul 13 2015, 01:40

@Jimsolo wrote:
It doesn't have to be a complete negation.  What if rather than being immune to Soulfright weapons, Fearless and ATSKNF models just get bonuses against them?

Sure, that seems reasonable. Roll an extra D6 or similar.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Mon Jul 13 2015, 02:12

Maybe 2 type of poison ammo. A 3+ poison that will kill, or a 4+ poison that will cripple and will allow to harvest the victim.

Harvesting should be the key. Maybe some heavy slow transports that are unarmed and serve only to take prisonners, and leave the battlefield. The key to win will be to determine when to withdraw without our harvesters being destroyed.
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iknowinewb
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Mon Jul 13 2015, 11:34

I remembered there was one wych cult in our codex that fought jumping down from raiders onto hoverboards and then into the fray then back up (not really sure about the sequence or were any jetbikes involved), giving our assault model to engage combat simply by flying our vehicle flat out over a unit could resemble that (and make up for bladevanes).

Also, as DE do not just simply engage combat for the sake of it, rather, DE meticulously plan out their raids (codex gives us an example) before descending upon the world, meaning they should already have their objectives in mind, whether to grab an artifact, STC, provide "aid"/AIDS, raid the hivers, stand on top of a titan etc. Maybe let the DE player have a choice to pre-select his objectives or generate them randomly as normal.

As for the Archons, they should be the top cheese of what they deal in (intrigue/poison/contacts/wealth/madness/style). Giving them a cheap fluffy upgrade to represent their personal interests/issues which then gives them stat/perk bonuses and personal objectives that must be achieved over the course of the battle, which, failing to do so will net them a VP penalty.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Mon Jul 13 2015, 17:52

They should have reach. Right now the only thing we can use our speed for is getting into position to weather the fire, which we dont recieve very well. Mayby if we could disembark and shoot after flat-out that would be it.

There is really no sense of they can get me anywhere now, rather they can overwhelm me. Sorta like Thor describes orks+tau, but faster.

 Threat range of most of the units should be massive. We can all live with fragility, as long as first strike is ours. That is what i like most, to defeat enemy before he even has the chance to fight back.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Mon Jul 13 2015, 20:14

Special poison effects would be awesome. Only wounding on 5+ but inflicting pinning tests, or removing ATSKNF or fearless if one model dies of the squad. That would make Dark Eldar truly unique! Keep the rest and give every squad the option to buy one special ammunition for one point per model.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Mon Jul 13 2015, 21:28

@Rotten Deadite wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
It doesn't have to be a complete negation.  What if rather than being immune to Soulfright weapons, Fearless and ATSKNF models just get bonuses against them?

Sure, that seems reasonable. Roll an extra D6 or similar.

What about just no immunities to WEAPONS?
This works on a model base (Avatar, GMC,..) but on an army level it is just stupid. Making Necrons immune to poison would be equally stupid.
No army should ever be immune to weapons or weapon effects.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Mon Jul 13 2015, 22:12

@Azdrubael wrote:
They should have reach. Right now the only thing we can use our speed for is getting into position to weather the fire, which we dont recieve very well. Mayby if we could disembark and shoot after flat-out that would be it.

There is really no sense of they can get me anywhere now, rather they can overwhelm me. Sorta like Thor describes orks+tau, but faster.

 Threat range of most of the units should be massive. We can all live with fragility, as long as first strike is ours. That is what i like most, to defeat enemy before he even has the chance to fight back.

This.

We are meant to be shockingly fast but we just aren't.

I want to FEEL uber fast. Our skimmers should be able to move 12" and disembark and shoot at full effect and charge. Reserve buffs and accurate deep strike is also needed.

Most importantly I want to FEEL like we can compete with the big boys at the top of the meta. I don't want to have to rely on elder allies or be a tax for a WWP in an elder army.
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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Tue Jul 14 2015, 00:10

@Painjunky wrote:

We are meant to be shockingly fast but we just aren't.

I agree, although I think we are fast, I don't think we've kept that quickness after the latest round of codex updates. Most other armies else either caught up or got faster than us.

And while I do feel that our units could be faster, I disagree completely that we should have more weapon range. There's a weird tipping point where fast movement range meets long range weaponry where, if you can't hit something on the table, you can move and then hit it. The entire table falls under your control.

That might seem like fun, but consider this: if you want your enemy to flee, to fear you, why should they run when there's nowhere to run to?

If anything, I'd be open to the idea of reducing weapon ranges, but these rules I'm working on aren't going to be that granular or that sweeping.

@Painjunky wrote:
I want to FEEL uber fast. Our skimmers should be able to move 12" and disembark and shoot at full effect and charge. Reserve buffs and accurate deep strike is also needed.

That's part of what I want to accomplish when I talk about making Dark Eldar scary - the incredible speed and deep-strike capabilities are excellent tools for keeping your enemy on his toes, twitchy and nervous that death could rush in from any corner.

@Painjunky wrote:
Most importantly I want to FEEL like we can compete with the big boys at the top of the meta. I don't want to have to rely on elder allies or be a tax for a WWP in an elder army.

Yeah, I'm sick of playing second-fiddle to CraftWorld. It's the worst, making lists in BattleScribe and thinking "why spend XXX points on Dark Eldar when the same points of CWE would do the job better?"
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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Tue Jul 14 2015, 00:10

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
What about just no immunities to WEAPONS?
Flesh Tearers? Immune to poison? Honestly, what the heck is that about?
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Tue Jul 14 2015, 00:14

How does outflank, disembark and assault sound?

Also, why are we using plasma grenades when poison gas grenades leave us with more slaves to acquire. Maybe... maybe they could even ignore cover? (Shock, gasp, horror, cries of "You've gone too far, you madman!" ect.)
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Tue Jul 14 2015, 00:16

Flesh tearer are immune to poison? Who came up with that? Where do you find such rules? In the Space Marine Codex?
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Tue Jul 14 2015, 00:19

@CptMetal wrote:
Flesh tearer are immune to poison? Who came up with that? Where do you find such rules? In the Space Marine Codex?

Just looked it up. It's a relic option I believe. Still, we're kinda screwed over by that.

I could see 'crons being immune to poison and fleshbane but wounded on 2+ by armourbane and haywire, with haywire inflicting instant death on a roll of 6 to wound. A living, biological creature? Not happening.

I mean, our poisons work on the goddamn 'Nids! If it works on them it'll work on anything with blood.
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Rotten Deadite
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Tue Jul 14 2015, 00:22

@CptMetal wrote:
Flesh tearer are immune to poison? Who came up with that? Where do you find such rules? In the Space Marine Codex?

Ah, my fault. Not "immune," but reduces all poisoned weapons to wound on their strength instead of their poison rule. Which is basically a big middle finger to Dark Eldar armies. It's an upgrade available to any Power Armor wearing unit called the "Shield of Cretacia," in the Shield of Baal: Exterminatus supplement.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Tue Jul 14 2015, 00:27

@Rotten Deadite wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
Flesh tearer are immune to poison? Who came up with that? Where do you find such rules? In the Space Marine Codex?

Ah, my fault. Not "immune," but reduces all poisoned weapons to wound on their strength instead of their poison rule. Which is basically a big middle finger to Dark Eldar armies. It's an upgrade available to any Power Armor wearing unit called the "Shield of Cretacia," in the Shield of Baal: Exterminatus supplement.

To be fair we dark kin are so OP compared to the space marines that they need that kind of edge against us. It's not like they're also immune to soul fright weapons, have armour that most of our weapons can't penetrate, are faster than us, or anything like that, so they obviously need this edge against the only army that makes significant use of poison.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Tue Jul 14 2015, 00:45

To improve the feeling of a fast army, they could allow our raiders and venom to move 12 inches after shooting. In battlefleet gothic, eldars are the only one who can have 2 move phases and it make the fleet unique.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Tue Jul 14 2015, 02:15

@FuelDrop wrote:
... poison gas grenades leave us with more slaves to acquire...

If we are going for a lore perspective this doesn't work well, it would leave us with yet another weapon that does pretty much nothing to Marines as it would be argued that their Power Armor is completely air tight preventing gas from effecting them. Our shard weapons work under the explaination that the shard managed to penetrate the armor and poison the individual inside the armor. A frag grendade that was poison would work under the same principle as a shard weapon however.

Yes I have an issue with the delivery system for the existing gas grenades for the same reason as it doesn't explain why units with completely enclosed environmental suits can be gassed.

I know gameplay > reality when developing a game system...

Sorry about the rant.


Last edited by CurstAlchemist on Tue Jul 14 2015, 05:04; edited 1 time in total
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Tue Jul 14 2015, 04:52

@Rotten Deadite wrote:
But so what? Even if we solve this "problem," GW does not have a history of listening to fan feedback.

You have to look at it in context. GW has gone through a major upheaval in the past two years and they have an unbelievable amount of workload to get through, and they've already done Dark Eldar, for better or for worse. It isn't that they don't want to review the Dark Eldar, it's just that they have a thousand other things that need to be done first.

In 2013 Mark Wells stepped down as CEO of GW. Mark had ruled GW succesfully for five years with an iron fist, foiling many attempts on his life thanks to his fierce hatred of games, miniatures, and cookies. He was temporarily replaced by the resurrected spirit of Tom Kirby, raised from his ancient hall of deathtraps in order to boldly bring GW up into the nineteenth century.

Mr. Kirby is a straightforward and plain-speaking character who does not believe in most modern ideas, such as electricity and mathematics. He quickly noticed that some things at GW were not in the exact same place as they had been when he left many years before, and set about putting them back where they ought to be. We can speculate that some codices, like Eldar and Tau, were already finished by the time he took over, but others like Orks and Space Wolves reflect his own policies.

Our Dark Eldar Codex came out near the end of the New Kirby era (2013-2014). We can imagine that something like this may have taken place:

Kirby: 'What's this? Haywire grenades for every wych? <sputter> Do you think we're made of money!'

Writer: 'Erm, they don't actually cost us any...'

Kirby: 'Don't interrupt, you young whippersnapper! I can see you have one of those apple phone things on you!'

Writer: 'But without them, they're just rubbish!'

Kirby: 'They're supposed to be rubbish! Dark Eldar are a rubbish army, because that's how it's always been! Who said that you could change it? I should horsewhip you for your insolence, you bespectacled urchin!'

Writer: 'Fine, I'll take out everything good, sheesh.'

Then last year, eager to return to the Shadowlands, Kirby called for someone to replace him as CEO. His only requirement was that they have no qualifications whatsoever, and that he like the cut of their jib (this is a true fact, you can look it up!). Very few people even knew what a jib was, let alone how to cut one. The only applicant to actually turn up with a well-cut jib was Kevin Rountree, who took over in January of 2015 (this year).

Kevin appears to be human and is also an accountant, so he probably believes in numbers, although at GW one can never be sure. He may have noticed that when rulebooks make models good, those models sell better, and after many calculations, hypnosis, and arcane rituals in order to determine what this means, finally reached a conclusion.

And so, Kevin Rountree has become Santa Kevin for every codex that has come out since. 'Here's formations for you! And fleshbane pistols for you! And gargantuan creatures and D-weapons for you, 'cause you're my favourite! And free transports for you! And...'

LITTLE BABY ARCHON WITH BIG SOULFUL EYES AND ADORABLE URCHIN VOICE: 'Santa Kevin? Is there anything in your bag of presents for me?'

SANTA KEVIN: 'NO! F*ck you! Ho ho ho!'

Mind you, this is all idle speculation on my part. Sometimes my mind goes places. Smile
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The "Feel" of Dark Eldar   Tue Jul 14 2015, 05:28

Lol, alternatively, in the whirlwind race to give everyone a hardcover codex, as well as remove any IP not protected by the presence of an extant model kit, the DE got a 'placeholder' codex which will eventually be replaced by something approaching legitimate. Not top tier, mind you, because that would be Cthulu-walks-among-us insane.
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